Large Hardon Collider

[Psion]

Man, seriously? Get the fuck out. I've tried to sit by and be idle since Woozie is more than capable of laying the smack down, but you of all people should have just stayed the hell out of the way. It seems to me that you are just trying to inject yourself in this debate since Woozie called you out and compared you to Max. I understand, your feelings were hurt, but dont be a goddamn tard with this "loool hes winning" bullshit.

This shit is no more of a fight than what you'd have if this were a hammer sparring against a nail.

I guess you misunderstood me. I was only objecting to Woozie refusing to debate with max with actual evidence, because to a layperson like me it didn't appear like a scientist not bothering to answer a basic question (and seriously, you call this basic but I can barely make heads or tails of most of this and probably won't until I can finally get into some physics classes), but just a person who pretends they know better and doesn't want to argue because they'll wind up being wrong. However, Woozie posted after explaining his reasons, and that's enough to satisfy me now. And I don't really care who he compares me to, honestly.

The whole point of my post was that as a scientist, you aren't supposed to resort to ad hominem attacks and tell people to go look it up themselves, regardless of how stupid they seem. It's your job as a scientist to pass knowledge to others and debate in a productive way that helps people reach new heights of understanding, and it hurts the credibility of all science when you resort to the same logical fallacies that Sarah Palin has. You never know who might be reading this, even a future employer. Do you want them to see you as a scientist who can't keep his integrity, even though you've already done this debate before? Honestly, woozie should just make a post explaining his point, and whenever max tries to do this again, all he has to do is repost or put a link to it to shut him up. That way he doesn't have to drive himself insane having to repost over and over the same words, but he also doesn't make himself look bad insulting others intelligence.

You might argue that this is an internet forum and that it's totally different when your working, and that might be true to some extent, but I'd rather not see a great physisist like Woozie get in the bad habit of refusing to explaining his position with evidence, even on a forum like BG, if only because there's a risk of it coming out to some extent where it shouldn't. That was the whole point of the post, to remind Woozie that people are watching this post that don't have any clue about max and his fixation with... whatever it is he's arguing about.

On a side note, it might be interesting for Woozie and a couple other of you physicists to do a series of physics posts, going from the utmost of physics basics and working your way up to more complicated ideas, like if you were explaining to a 10 year old. That way it could be a great thread not only for science related news, but also a way for people like me who have no understanding of physics other than the most basic math like algebra to grasp more of the news that goes on in this thread. I for one would consider it a godsend since I haven't done physics in almost a decade, and I'd love to brush up and maybe get ahead before I take more physics classes, probably starting in autumn. I know, I know, google it and read some books, but I've never managed to learn very well from just reading a book, human interaction and demonstration is how I learn best.

[Eliseos]

Pretty sure you're confusing scientist with teacher. Also I don't have the time (pretty sure none of the current students here do) to explain basic physics concepts in a thread. If you have a question, we can answer something specific. If you can't learn on your own from a book, you are going to have a tough time in college.

[Shiroikage]

Actually, ripping the fuck out of cranks is pretty much the oldest tradition in the sciences.
Woozie should be proud if a future employer saw his stellar crank-busting skills.

[Cadsuane]

Why do laypeople have this sense of entitlement? It's not the job of an academic to enlighten every random schmuck anymore than it's an academic's fault if the random schmuck fails to understand something (and despite this, academia propagates all real knowledge). If you want to learn physics, go to a library or go to school or download MIT lectures. The availability of information and educational material makes the following conclusion inevitable; the only reason anyone doesn't know anything is because they were too stupid or too lazy or too busy to learn it.

[Psion]

Why do laypeople have this sense of entitlement? It's not the job of an academic to enlighten every random schmuck anymore than it's an academic's fault if the random schmuck fails to understand something (and despite this, academia propagates all real knowledge). If you want to learn physics, go to a library or go to school or download MIT lectures. The availability of information and educational material makes the following conclusion inevitable; the only reason anyone doesn't know anything is because they were too stupid or too lazy or too busy to learn it.

Entitlement? I was making a suggestion and a request, I didn't feel entitled to anything. I think you need to take a step back and chill out, if you snap like this when people simply make a polite request. If no one wants to do that, that's fine.

And to be a scientist IS to be a teacher, Eliseos. Knowledge is no good unless it's passed on. You might not be teaching grade school students as a scientist, but you are teaching regardless if your audience is an unruly batch of fourth-graders or an even unrulier batch of fellow scientists who think they know better than you.

Actually, ripping the fuck out of cranks is pretty much the oldest tradition in the sciences.
Woozie should be proud if a future employer saw his stellar crank-busting skills.

And I'm not saying that's a bad thing. The whole complaint I had was over Woozie's method in his first post, not fighting evidence (no matter how badly formulated) with counterevidence, but with name calling and nothing else. You didn't see me getting into hissyfits over Kaylia slamming max while using counterevidence, nor everyone actually arguing the facts later, now did you? ^.^

[Kaylia]

Maybe his problem is just the consolidation of all the frames of reference.

For example, say you and a buddy are having a beer (on earth), and you decide to have a little fun. You shoot off into space and head toward Betelgeuse at nearly the speed of light. Your buddy stays on earth and keeps an eye on you. Meanwhile, a couple photons emitted from Betelgeuse a couple years ago approach. One hits your eye, while you're at nearly the speed of light. The other continues on by toward your buddy on earth. How long until that photon reaches him? And if you stop now (you haven't been moving for long), how far from earth are you (and the photon that just passed you)? How long was the photon's total journey from Betelgeuse to your buddy? And to you?

The consolidation of all frame of references was his answer more than his issue, its just that he is applying it in the wrong context.


[edit]
In this scenario, it's important to consider the acceleration since you go from one frame of reference (the earth) to another (the shuttle). While you accelerate, the photon that hit you will be increasingly younger (following a tanh curve) until you read your cruise speed. At that point, any photons that hit you will be "gamma" time younger than the one that hits your friend's eyes in his frame of reference.

[Mizango]

I like how Cadsuane didnt mention you by name, yet you took it personal. By all means, if the shoe fits..

Pretty much sums up our point quite nicely.

[Mizango]

Unfortunately he is 100% correct.

[Shiroikage]

You don't need to be a good teacher to be a good scientist.

[Kaylia]

I will side with Psion on this...kinda. I find it hard to believe that someone who is willing to dedicate his life at finding the truth would look down on other who're genuinely trying to understand.

However, I also believe there is the concept of "bad student" that is very important to take into account if you want to talk about "good teacher". It's nobody duty to teach someone who doesn't want to listen, and no one can be criticized for not spending time helping another person who doesn't want to be helped.

[Zeb]

Woozie obviously doesn't believe in the no child left behind policy.

[Psion]

I will side with Psion on this...kinda. I find it hard to believe that someone who is willing to dedicate his life at finding the truth would look down on other who're genuinely trying to understand.

However, I also believe there is the concept of "bad student" that is very important to take into account if you want to talk about "good teacher". It's nobody duty to teach someone who doesn't want to listen, and no one can be criticized for not spending time helping another person who doesn't want to be helped.

I get where you're coming from Kaylia, though I feel that even bad students can be taught. The problem is, such students require help in ways that you can't always provide. Sometimes it's time they need, other times new experiences, sometimes a crisis. I speak from personal experience on this. I personally used to be a bigoted little ass, and even thought it was for their own good, until I hit puberty and found out I was gay, becoming one of those people I shunned. Even then it took over 5 years of suffering from it before I finally grew up. The point is, I feel like people write off others as stupid and useless too easily, when all they really need is help growing into the person they were meant to be. I guess where other people see bad apples, I see the seeds inside that need certain lessons to grow up and be productive and wonderful, and if there's a way for me to help with that process, I will.

Of course there are times when someone refuses to listen, and if that's the case it's pointless wasting energy trying to reach them in that particular way at that particular time, but there are many ways of teaching, and not always by words or even actions. But I feel like it really is our duty, everyone's duty, to spend time with others and help them to grow. Providing people with help in food, shelter, clean water, and health services are all great, but growing in our understanding of the world is what sets us apart from animals, and I think everyone should try and help expand others knowledge in whatever ways will work for that person.

[Qalbert]

Of course there are times when someone refuses to listen, and if that's the case it's pointless wasting energy trying to reach them

maxteem in a nutshell

[Psion]

maxteem in a nutshell

Please do not quote me out of context. We have more than enough of THAT occuring in America's news agencies.

Of course there are times when someone refuses to listen, and if that's the case it's pointless wasting energy trying to reach them in that particular way at that particular time,

[Shiroikage]

MaxTeem absolutely does not give a shit about the facts and is hardset on pushing either his crank agenda, misinformation, or hell, usually a mix of both.

[Qalbert]

Please do not quote me out of context. We have more than enough of THAT occuring in America's news agencies.

I quoted the applicable portion.

[Kaylia]

I get where you're coming from Kaylia, though I feel that even bad students can be taught. The problem is, such students require help in ways that you can't always provide. Sometimes it's time they need, other times new experiences, sometimes a crisis. I speak from personal experience on this. I personally used to be a bigoted little ass, and even thought it was for their own good, until I hit puberty and found out I was gay, becoming one of those people I shunned. Even then it took over 5 years of suffering from it before I finally grew up. The point is, I feel like people write off others as stupid and useless too easily, when all they really need is help growing into the person they were meant to be. I guess where other people see bad apples, I see the seeds inside that need certain lessons to grow up and be productive and wonderful, and if there's a way for me to help with that process, I will.

Of course there are times when someone refuses to listen, and if that's the case it's pointless wasting energy trying to reach them in that particular way at that particular time, but there are many ways of teaching, and not always by words or even actions. But I feel like it really is our duty, everyone's duty, to spend time with others and help them to grow. Providing people with help in food, shelter, clean water, and health services are all great, but growing in our understanding of the world is what sets us apart from animals, and I think everyone should try and help expand others knowledge in whatever ways will work for that person.

There is still a difference between teaching and convincing though. Sciences has tools that can be used for that, and they need to be used when the context require it.

Also, convincing someone on the internet requires an infinite amount of time and energy. You would probably reach the speed of light before that.

MaxTeem absolutely does not give a shit about the facts and is hardset on pushing either his crank agenda, misinformation, or hell, usually a mix of both.

Max isn't as bad as people make it sound, because you can usually see where he is coming from. Some cranks are just batshit insanes, especially the one that do maths [almost] correctly.

[Cadsuane]

ITT: making educated people responsible for the iniquities of the willfully stupid and ignorant

[Eliseos]

Max isn't as bad as people make it sound, because you can usually see where he is coming from. Some cranks are just batshit insanes, especially the one that do maths [almost] correctly.

Max's problem, in my opinion, is that he never admits when he's wrong. At least, not that I can ever remember. If you can't admit you are wrong about something, you aren't very likely to learn from it and become better at it. This is where the lack of any higher education hurts him, he doesn't have a teacher to grade him on what he does or knows right and wrong.

[Woozie]

Everyone (and by "everyone" I mean "Psion") seems to be ignoring the fact that I did in fact try to explain this to Max in previous threads. As I pointed out earlier, this is an old argument that he just decided to bring up again. I did everything you're saying a good scientist should do. I explained my points in detail, just like you wanted. Max has already posted tons of evidence to support my point, so it doesn't even make sense for me to post it since it's already there. What more do you want from me? Do you want me to go back and copy/paste all my old arguments? Every time he brings this up, I'm obligated to repeat myself over and over again? Just because you're too lazy to go back and read them doesn't mean they don't exist. Max already posted a link to the thread, you just haven't bothered reading it.

If a scientist had to repeat themselves every time someone brought up an old argument they've already had, scientists would be too busy telling us over and over again that dinosaurs existed to actually get some real work done. Go find a scientist and tell him the Earth is flat. I guarantee that he wont argue with you long. And if he does, come back a year later and I bet he wont argue with you a second time. He'll just tell you to go read a book/look it up yourself/jump off a bridge/etc.