Large Hardon Collider

[Pirian]

I've got a question for you ("you" being anyone who can answer). I have a friend who absolutely does not believe in "time" as a vector, and I have tried to have conversations with him about the evidence but our conversations ultimately end up at "Yes, it does" "No, it doesn't". I have a feeling that I'm just not explaining myself well enough, so what can I say? Also keep in mind that he really has no argument other than trying to pick apart what I say, which isn't an argument at all, but he sees it as evidence in his favor. As you've seen here, I am by far an expert on the matter but I have dealt with it for 2 years as part of my major, and still find it wildly interesting.

What my argument thus far has been is not really relevant; please start out as if it was a fresh conversation (this is how it always starts out anyways, and I always repeat information just in case it hits him differently by chance)

[Khamsin]

right, but what about when no one is accelerating? just coasting along. does nothing happen then? in regards to time dilation and shizzles.

If you're moving along at 0.9c, no acceleration or anything, you'll observe that your trip is looking quite a bit shorter. If your trip was 10 light years away, but now it appears to be 4 because you're moving so fast, it'll take you that much less time to complete it.

Also keep in mind that, according to everyone on earth, it still looks like a 10 light year trip. You're the one moving with respect to your origin and destination (and everything else in the universe). You may see earth moving fast, but you also see your destination moving just as fast.

[Chun Liroy]

Me has a question too, should be fairly simple to answer, and I should probably look it up, but I like the examples XD. This may delve into string theory, which I'm sure many of you aren't fans of (ok maybe maybe not, I don't even know), but what is 4d, 5d etc? Do they exist? Is the "4th dimension" time?

[foopy]

What you want is this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clock_hypothesis

Time dilation isn't a bi-product of acceleration.

thanks for the link. but i'm still stupid lol.

If you're in a car going 50mph and Eli going 60mph, then from your point of view (or "frame of reference"), it looks to you as if Eli is only going 10mph, whereas Kaylia, who's at the bus stop because he's a physicist and thus can't afford a car, will measure Eli to be going 60mph. One interesting thing to note about physics is that we can't tell who's right and who's wrong. Kaylia says Eli is going 60 but you say he's going 10. Well, neither of you is more correct than the other. Everything is "relative" to the person's "frame of reference".

In fact, from your frame of reference, you would say that you're sitting still and Kaylia (as well as the rest of the world) is moving backwards at 50mph (except Eli, who's going forward 10mph). Kaylia would argue that he's (and the rest of the world) the one sitting still and you're the one who's moving (at 50mph, to be exact). No experiment can be conducted to say who's "right" and who's "wrong". You're perfectly correct in saying that you're sitting still in your still car while everything else is moving backwards.

i basically took what wooz said and retard-smashed it together with some quasi twin paradox shit in my fag brain and i got a does not compute.

so one twin bounces, but in his frame of reference, it's the earth leaving. i reconciled the fact that when he returns everyone is dead, instead of the earth "returning" to him and he's dead by (falsely - thanks miz) assuming acceleration had something to do with it.

so now, if the force of accelerating to .9c has nothing to do with time dilation stuffz, why isn't it the twin who is on earth that "flies" away from his space ship brother the one that returns to find the much decayed body of his brother?

i mean, if the engines have nothing to do with it (force/acceleration), can't we instead say the twin in the space ship is doing nothing, and its earth that is zooming away at .9c?

halp?!

the answer is probably very obvious, but i'm simply missing something.

[Mizango]

You aren't accelerating at all if you're moving at a constant .9c. You'd be decelerating if you cut your engines off and decided to coast.

decelerating due to? space friction? i thought that'd be nearly negligible.

Newton's first law of motion: "A body in motion will tend to stay in motion, in the same direction and at a constant speed, unless acted upon by an outside force."

You would inevitably meet the afore mentioned force. It may be millions or billions of years after the fact, but you will pass close to some relative star who's gravity will act upon you, even if in a very minuscule way. You are right, there is no friction and you would have little obstruction if you could hypothetically find a way to reach close to c. Giant red dwarves, brown dwarves, pulsars, bh's, gas giants a la Jupiter could all potentially act upon you and slow you down.

Another thing to consider also is that we know from space walks, being in LEO via the space station and even with Voyager that there are very fine particles of dust and tiny granules of "rock" that ding and crash into our probes. Astronauts say it sounds like tiny sand granules hitting the outside of a car, to give you a visual. Assuming also that you're passing through solar systems (assuming they are like ours) where you have to deal with the likes of the Heliosheath and termination shock. Granted, these solar winds are merely particles but iirc they did have a bearing on both voyager crafts, albeit minuscule.

You are still being acted upon, so id say that too would be a deciding factor.

[Mizango]

Me has a question too, should be fairly simple to answer, and I should probably look it up, but I like the examples XD. This may delve into string theory, which I'm sure many of you aren't fans of (ok maybe maybe not, I don't even know), but what is 4d, 5d etc? Do they exist? Is the "4th dimension" time?

Oh god no. Ill try to get to this in just a second lol. Holla at Brian Greene brah. ST is mind numbing @@

[Eliseos]

I've got a question for you ("you" being anyone who can answer). I have a friend who absolutely does not believe in "time" as a vector, and I have tried to have conversations with him about the evidence but our conversations ultimately end up at "Yes, it does" "No, it doesn't". I have a feeling that I'm just not explaining myself well enough, so what can I say? Also keep in mind that he really has no argument other than trying to pick apart what I say, which isn't an argument at all, but he sees it as evidence in his favor. As you've seen here, I am by far an expert on the matter but I have dealt with it for 2 years as part of my major, and still find it wildly interesting.

What my argument thus far has been is not really relevant; please start out as if it was a fresh conversation (this is how it always starts out anyways, and I always repeat information just in case it hits him differently by chance)

What does "time as a vector" mean? I've never heard that phrase before and I am assuming it is different than a mathematical vector.

[Pirian]

What does "time as a vector" mean? I've never heard that phrase before and I am assuming it is different than a mathematical vector.

You know what? You fucking got me. I was just repeating him word for word. Maybe that is my problem? I'm explaining why "time" exists, instead of what he wanted. Thinking about it, "time as a vector" would have to be viewing time as having a past and a future on a single continuum where everything we perceive is happening along that line

[Mizango]

"Time" is nothing more than a way to measure a period between events. Is your friend high when he has this matrix like revelations? I'd bet he is lol

[Mizango]

That question is almost as deep and endless as "why are we here?".

[Pirian]

lol, it is very possible.

That question is almost as deep and endless as "why are we here?".

Hah, it's funny you say that, because in my frustration with him I sarcastically asked him that. It's become a running joke between us - he can't ask me what time it is because I'll respond "Time doesn't exist", which is also my answer to a plethora of other questions he asks me, but I can't think of to repeat

[Mizango]

lol, I ask because most people pose those questions when high. Been there, done that.

"Yo nigga, since you smart... do you think that we are here because a being planted us here, or do you really think that alien life is there and seeded us? "

Blew my buzz and high every time. I hated that.

[Mizango]

.."Cause I mean, if a being did plant us here, then why take away our free will by telling us what we should do? You feel me? I be like on that Matrix shit right? This stuff may not even be real, you feel me? "

[Chun Liroy]

We are here because some old white dude with a beard made us, obv.

Miz I think there's something wrong with me, I've been increasingly sarcastic, mean and I've lost the heavy filter on my brain. But to me I don't feel any different lol. I'm not mad at anything, I was very happy yesterday, and for some reason lately I've lost my filter. Halp.

Pretend this is science.

[Pirian]

Kat Williams does a funny bit about "the smart high friend" who always asks the stupid 'intelligent' questions and has the stupid 'intelligent' answers

[Chun Liroy]

.."Cause I mean, if a being did plant us here, then why take away our free will by telling us what we should do? You feel me? I be like on that Matrix shit right? This stuff may not even be real, you feel me? "

Hey man, free will doesn't exist. That is like the biggest troll to any religion ever. "Since free will doesn't exist, nothing we do will change the outcome as it was going to happen in the first place. Whether you are going to heaven or hell is predetermined so you might as well 'do what you want.'" Rite.

[Mizango]

We are here because some old white dude with a beard made us, obv.

Miz I think there's something wrong with me, I've been increasingly sarcastic, mean and I've lost the heavy filter on my brain. But to me I don't feel any different lol. I'm not mad at anything, I was very happy yesterday, and for some reason lately I've lost my filter. Halp.

Pretend this is science.

Embrace it. This just means you are through being a candy ass.

Kat Williams does a funny bit about "the smart high friend" who always asks the stupid 'intelligent' questions and has the stupid 'intelligent' answers

I've heard about that skit before but never seen it lol. I cant get past my "Kat Williams sucks when he's not Money Mike" phobia It's true though lol.

[Pirian]

I've heard about that skit before but never seen it lol. I cant get past my "Kat Williams sucks when he's not Money Mike" phobia It's true though lol.

lol, people will bitch and moan about something, always. I love stand-up comedy so I eventually got around to watching his stuff (although, I will admit that it was after I had seen just about everything else out there). He isn't bad, but he does to the stereotypical jokes

[Mizango]

Hey man, free will doesn't exist. That is like the biggest troll to any religion ever. "Since free will doesn't exist, nothing we do will change the outcome as it was going to happen in the first place. Whether you are going to heaven or hell is predetermined so you might as well 'do what you want.'" Rite.

Let's change this topic before Psion comes in claiming he can talk to Jesus via telepathy as he posts under his 'Charles Xavier' pen name.

[Chun Liroy]

Embrace it. This just means you are through being a candy ass.

I suppose subconsciously. Man I've been ragging on fat ugly people this past week HARD with my frans. Especially about the people that we hang out with that we mutually dislike. Making a pregnant joke on someone's FB is super serious because people might believe you and that's not funny, Quincy.

/offtopic (or am I, was there ever a topic?)

Edit: actually, I think it has to do with the lack of spam where I would just put all of my thoughts there so now I just talk to people IRL about it. Interesting. Does anyone have Discovery Health? I used to watch that shit all the damn time, has it changed much? Mystery diagnosis was my shit, as was Dr. G