Job Adjustments and Additions Part I (07/03/2009)

[Sho]

If you dig in the data files, you find the spell listing for Meteor & Comet are found directly under Gravity II and before Poison. Using this, you can go into the old spell listing in PoLUtil and look for those specific lines. In regards to Meteor it says the following:

MagicType: Black Magic
Element: Special
Valid Targets: Enemy
Skill: Elemental Magic
MP Cost: 1
Casting Time: 8s
Recast Time: 10s

what you're saying sounds more like what people found when they looked up Comet;

MagicType: Black Magic
Element: Dark
Valid Targets: Enemy
Skill: Dark Magic
MP Cost: 1
Casting Time: 4s
Recast Time: 10s

As far as the casting and recast time goes, if it's the same as in-game monsters, I don't know. But this is my basis for further believing that Meteor is non-elemental. I do believe people believe Meteor is light-based because of Carbuncle's Blood Pact "Meteorite" which is very >_> It should also be noted most physical Blue Magic is listed as "Special" Element too, so this seems to indicate, that the normal rules of magic do not apply in terms of resisting Meteor damage.

Also; you can charm any charmable mob in the game as a level 1 BST with a minimum of 5% success rate.

This is what I was pointing at earlier. But it COULD very well be something else, (or all), no one I know has really sat there and tested what form of magic damage it is outside of Fealty. Anyways it could be one of three choices:

1) Light & Dark Damage (based on Meteorite spell, and Comet's old listing as a Dark Elemental)
2) All Elemental (just like Cosmic Elucidation, comprised of all 8 elements)
3) Non-Elemental

2 is a hell of a stretch but possible, and I suggested Virtuous Saint (and his LS) test 1 at least to see what's up since his LS seems to still be the only one serious about taking down AV eventually (and VS claims that Dark resist gear helped). What can be said is that it's not any one single element. Also 2 and 3 can be one and the same, you know how SE is weird and shit.

[Zelduh]

Fealty also reduces the damage of Mijin Gakure, and Mijin Gakure was found to be non-elemental (not fire), so chances are Meteor is also non-elemental.

[Starr]

SE should either allow Comet/Meteor and maybe even AV altogether stunnable or weaken the strength of these spells so it is killable, if the bullshit lock the 2hours secret has been found why do they still need to fuck with us?

[Virtuous Saint]

It might be dual-element, but it is dark, that is a fact, and so due to the fact that Fenrir/Diabolos resist it. You can test this if you like, if not then stop speaking about it because you have no real clue, and you want to be right.

[Virtuous Saint]

SE should either allow Comet/Meteor and maybe even AV altogether stunnable or weaken the strength of these spells so it is killable, if the bullshit lock the 2hours secret has been found why do they still need to fuck with us?

There is likely a way to weaken it more, they couldn't have survived 1meteor in the dev video with that gear let alone meteor every few casts. Obviously tho, they had their 2hr recast set to 0 for purposes of locking/hinting how to lock, and they could have also been invincible whenever they choose I'm sure. The fact remains tho, it is nearly impossible with the MAB boost it gets.

[Suiram]

I don't like using avatars as confirmations of magic stuff to be honest. It's sort of like ballista where it can provide clues, but there have been some past inconsistencies so I wouldn't say it's definitive.

I had thought that it was non-elemental, too, but now for me personally it's up in the air. If you want some evidence for the "not dark-based" argument, just did a wing 3 with KB boss that took longer than usual since we only had 19 ppl due to holiday, so 4 meteors got off before we killed. I asked some people on non-stoneskin jobs whether the damage was consistent in the 3-4 meteors they ate, and of the 7 people (including myself) who responded, none had a damage increase corresponding to day/weather proc (was triple-dark)--although one person did have an increase on one cast but that was later attributed to shell wearing mid-fight. Of course it could still be dark-based and just unaffected by day/weather conditions (some magic abilities selectively ignore certain bonuses), so like I said it's just evidence for the other side of this unresolved argument.

One possible explanation for the avatars, by the way, should it turn out not to be a dark-based attack, is that perhaps those two have an increased resistance or a significant damage cut to non-elemental damage. It seems to be classified separately when damage cuts are calculated. The Dvergr in the rank 10 assault, for instance, takes -87.5% damage from all elemental magic, but only -12.5% from Atonement, Spirits Within, and such. And of course there's the bonus/penalty on Cerb/Hydra.

Anyway, thought this was relevant to this debate, even if it doesn't really help either way in developing a strategy for dealing with AV's meteors.

[Snprphnx]

currently this is a thread about the NIN update. get all this BLM shit outta here.

[Virtuous Saint]

I don't like using avatars as confirmations of magic stuff to be honest. It's sort of like ballista where it can provide clues, but there have been some past inconsistencies so I wouldn't say it's definitive.

I had thought that it was non-elemental, too, but now for me personally it's up in the air. If you want some evidence for the "not dark-based" argument, just did a wing 3 with KB boss that took longer than usual since we only had 19 ppl due to holiday, so 4 meteors got off before we killed. I asked some people on non-stoneskin jobs whether the damage was consistent in the 3-4 meteors they ate, and of the 7 people (including myself) who responded, none had a damage increase corresponding to day/weather proc (was triple-dark)--although one person did have an increase on one cast but that was later attributed to shell wearing mid-fight. Of course it could still be dark-based and just unaffected by day/weather conditions (some magic abilities selectively ignore certain bonuses), so like I said it's just evidence for the other side of this unresolved argument.

One possible explanation for the avatars, by the way, should it turn out not to be a dark-based attack, is that perhaps those two have an increased resistance or a significant damage cut to non-elemental damage. It seems to be classified separately when damage cuts are calculated. The Dvergr in the rank 10 assault, for instance, takes -87.5% damage from all elemental magic, but only -12.5% from Atonement, Spirits Within, and such. And of course there's the bonus/penalty on Cerb/Hydra.

Anyway, thought this was relevant to this debate, even if it doesn't really help either way in developing a strategy for dealing with AV's meteors.

That is pretty much irrelevant looking at meteor, seeing as how it is clearly considered enfeebling/ailment damage. No reason to believe it would gain day/weather bonus, but at the same time there is no real reason to believe it wouldn't. Fact is, it is different than any other spell in the game, and could have any attributes we don't know about.

[Suiram]

I wasn't excluding that possibility. I was just trying to say it's not clear-cut. Avatar damage is just a clue or an argument for one side, absence of day/weather adjustment is a clue or argument for the other, but neither resolves the question. Not really sure how it could be resolved to be honest, until they give players meteor and comet to use. But if the question "is it dark-based" is really obscuring the real question "if I stack enough dark resistant gear and get dark carol, will I reliably resist meteor?" then the latter could just easily be determined on its own by trying.

[Seraphus]

Duh, Fucking Morons, Meteor and Comet are Enfeebling Magic!

Why the fuck else would Fealty mitigate 90% of its damage

Spoiler: show

*runs*

Spoiler: show

But really, Meteor is Dark Magic >_> idk what the hell ya'll are smoking.
Contrary to Fealty's description, it actually blocks the effects of anything that isn't Elemental Magic.
So that leaves meteor to either be Enfeebling or Dark magic.
Hint: It doesn't inflict debuffs at all

[Suiram]

Oh yeah, I wouldn't say it's "clearly enfeebling/ailment damage". Rather, it's more likely that Fealty increases resistance to or otherwise mitigates non-elemental magic (works on Mijin, right?)

[Seraphus]

Oh yeah, I wouldn't say it's "clearly enfeebling/ailment damage". Rather, it's more likely that Fealty increases resistance to or otherwise mitigates non-elemental magic (works on Mijin, right?)

Nope, I pop fealty in Dynamis and still eat full blown mijin gakures when they happen. Sorry >_>

[Kaeko]

I think it would be extrapolation to just assume it is really enfeebling (Meteor I mean). The question Suiram poses "if I stack enough dark resistant gear and get dark carol, will I reliably resist meteor?" is really the one you want to know and that's easily tested. Sometimes it doesn't help so much to dance around trying to put everything in a convenient category.

For all we know, Fealty could be Enfeebling magic bonus + -90% damage to whatever the hell meteor is actually classified under. You can provide evidence that meteor is this or that but it's not clear cut at this point. And again, really we don't actually care. We just want to know of ways to reduce damage, of which is testable.

[Seraphus]

Magic Defense Bonus, MDT-, and Fealty is all that really works for meteor.

As far as all dark magic (with the exception of stun) I don't think Dark Magic can be resisted at all unless the target has some sort of magical barrier up (Pots, Eyes, etc)

[Kaeko]

I'm just saying this is testable. You rarely see people running around in Dark elemental stacked sets. Extrapolating known knowledge to other things is good when we can't directly test something, but in this case you can, so why settle for "I think X" when you can say "I tested X and it did/did not work"?

[Seraphus]

Also taking into account the bare minimum of FFXI resist rates, every 4-5 meteors that go off in Behemoth's Dominion, you're bound to at least have a couple resists out of the 40 or so targets (inside and outside of the fighting alliance)

When's the last time you ever heard someone say "Woot I resisted meteor" without them being a Paladin with Fealty meritted?

Surviving meteor and resisting it are completely different things, and some of it can be mistaken for it like White Mage MDB + their stoneskin making them take around 600 damage.

If you take away all the MDB, Shell, MDT- gear, and Fealty capabilities, you will never see a "resisted" meteor unless you somehow put something that'd use Meteor in a pankration ring with a pot or an Ahriman.

It's resistance traits are almost (if not completely) the same as dark magic spells, as I said. (Except stun)

[Seraphus]

And somewhere in my rambling, I (even though I have DRK 75) completely forgot about Drain, Aspir, and Dread Spikes doing direct damage in the Dark Magic family.

Fealty resists the fuck out of those too >_>

[Suiram]

Out of curiousity, is Dread Spikes "Dark Magic" or "Enhancing Magic" (do you get Dark Magic skillups if uncapped)?

[Kaeko]

Well I guess I'm beating a dead horse here. My entire argument didn't even pick a side as to "what is meteor?", I just simply stated that when something is so directly testable, it's better to just wait and see rather than pose further argument. The question of "how does it work?" is interesting, but I think we all know the real question is "will dark resist help resist meteor so we can apply it to AV?".

I mean I don't mean to sound apathetic about the argument at hand, but both Suiram and VS know I've discussed this very question with them like weeks prior via PM. Unfortunately I don't personally care to rehash the same arguments in open forum, though maybe Suiram or VS would like to.

[Seraphus]

I personally think the best way to handle meteor from AV is to have 3-4 Paladins all with capped fealty :/

Then find out how often AV uses meteor, make 1-2, or hell even 3-4 if the time between casts permits for it.

I'll place money on the fact that any Paladin with Fealty active is guarenteed to survive meteor unless you're under 200 HP anyway