Arizona moves to allow concealed guns in bars

[Rhinox]

PHOENIX – There was a time in the Wild West that cowboys had to check their guns before they could pull up a bar stool for a drink — rules that protected against the saloon gunfights that came to define the frontier era in places like Arizona.
But a bill moving through the Arizona Legislature has some bar owners fearful that the state is turning back the clock to the Old West. Lawmakers are considering a bill that would allow anyone with a concealed-weapons permit to bring a handgun into bars and restaurants serving alcohol.
The bill gives bars discretion to keep gun-toting patrons out, and anyone with a weapon would not be allowed to drink. But the bill has angered bar owners who believe booze and guns are a recipe for disaster.
"This might be one of the stupidest things that I have heard of," said Mike Nelson, who owns Pomeroy's bar in Phoenix and plans to post a sign on his front door outlawing guns in his bar as soon as possible. "Can you think of a single reason guns and alcohol should be intertwined?"
The bill is part of a nationwide push by the National Rifle Association. Georgia passed a similar law in 2008, as did Tennessee earlier this year in becoming the 40th state to allow bar or restaurant patrons to carry guns.
"These laws are common sense," said NRA spokeswoman Rachel Parsons. "Restaurants are not immune to criminal activity. Law-abiding people — regardless of whether they're in restaurants, cars or homes — they should be able to protect themselves against criminal attack."
One of the bill's sponsors, Republican Rep. John Kavanagh, said it's about time Arizona passes such a law, and that the most important thing is that people carrying guns into bars aren't allowed to drink.
"You don't want intoxicated people with weapons, and this bill continues the prohibition against drinking and carrying," said Kavanagh, a retired police officer in New York and New Jersey. "What is the problem with having a gun in a delicatessen where someone is having a beer with their pastrami two tables away?"
The law would only apply to people with concealed-weapons permits because lawmakers say that type of gun owner has to pass a background check and take an eight-hour course to get their permits, and are therefore safer. More than 127,000 Arizonans have concealed-weapons permits, according to the Arizona Department of Public Safety.
Arizonans are also allowed to openly carry guns — on a belt or holster, for example. But those people would still not be allowed in bars or restaurants serving alcohol if they're armed.
The bill has been approved by the Senate and is now before the House; Republican Gov. Jan Brewer would still have to OK it.
Marc Peagler, owner of the Silver Spur Saloon Restaurant in Cave Creek outside Phoenix, said he's in favor of the legislation and sees some marketing potential in it.
"I look at it this way — let's just say for a moment you're a crook or a thief," Peagler said. "Are you going to break into a place where you know that there might be 10 to 15 people who are armed? I wouldn't do that."
Peagler, a gun owner himself, said people with concealed-weapons permits aren't people to be concerned about.
"People who carry concealed weapons for the most part are your general law-abiding citizens, and the people who are going to break the law are going to do it no matter what laws we have out there," he said. "If somebody has been drinking and they have a weapon in the car, they're just going to go out and get it."
Frank Murray, owner of Seamus McCaffrey's Irish Pub & Restaurant in downtown Phoenix, said he opposes the law and will prohibit his customers from coming in armed.
"It's kind of like the Wild West days," he said. "We've got enough nuts out on the street walking around with guns. We don't need them in places with alcohol and families."
The Arizona Licensed Beverage Association threw its support behind the bill after some compromises were made this week. The Arizona Restaurant Association has taken a neutral stance, but in previous years came out against most bills that would have allowed guns in bars and restaurants with alcohol.
This year's bill is one of several measures loosening gun laws moving through the Arizona Legislature.
In May, the House overwhelmingly approved a bill that would permit gun owners to keep a weapon out of sight in a locked vehicle in a parking lot or garage. That would override employers that ban weapons on their property.
Last week, a Senate committee approved a bill that would allow Arizonans to carry concealed weapons without state permits, despite objections from law enforcement.

Almost a week old but still good.

Arizona moves to allow concealed guns in bars - Yahoo! News

Welcome to the wild wild west.

Time to see where most of you stand.

[Nibe]

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[Rhinox]

Btw it has been approved by the state legislature. All that needs to happen is for the pro-CC governor to sign the bill into law.

[Melchiah]

Guns + Alcohol = BAD

As most of you know, I am a gun owner and a CW permit holder.

First issue with this that I see:

According to the bill, you can carry concealed in a drinking establishment, but you cannot drink if you are carrying.

So we're on the honor system? How do you enforce this part of the bill without giving away who is carrying concealed and who isn't? The whole point of concealed carry is that no one knows who has a gun. This part is retarded.

Second:

While I understand the desire to protect one's self against the violent criminal, you don't hear about many bars and restaurants being held up. Liquor stores and banks, yes. Not bars.

The establishment owners are absolutely correct in their position about mixing guns and alcohol. Bar fights are bad enough with fists, bottles and chairs without bringing firearms into the mix.

There is a time and a place for everything. For me, the time and place for me to carry my weapon is when I go to class at night and when I go to my girlfriend's house(bad part of town). Not when I go to the local pub.

[Neosutra]

And this is why I live in Arizona.

[Rhinox]

The way I see this bill is, it allows more freedoms to those who wish to have them, while allowing the ability to those who don't want it to restrict it themselves. Although if I were a bar owner myself, I would not allow it, I don't see why bar owners shouldn't be allowed to have it.

Besides, whats the point of having a concealed carry permit if you can't carry places?

Because there are bound to be many Card carrying NRA nut jobs that own bars and restaurants that allow them to have it. Can you honestly say Alcohol and guns are a good mix?

[Rhinox]

And this is why I live in Arizona.

Texas won't be outdone by Arizona.

Texas will now propose to allow guns in federal court rooms.

[pohibaba]

Do you guys honestly think that we're going to see a surge of shootings in bars in Arizona now? How often does a person with a CC permit pull out their gun and shoot someone in anger? I would imagine that the rates of that happening are very, very low.

[Rhinox]

Do you guys honestly think that we're going to see a surge of shootings in bars in Arizona now? How often does a person with a CC permit pull out their gun and shoot someone in anger? I would imagine that the rates of that happening are very, very low.

Did you miss the part where Alcohol might now be involved? You couldn't have its implied in the title of the thread pohi.

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[pohibaba]

Because there are bound to be many Card carrying NRA nut jobs that own bars and restaurants that allow them to have it. Can you honestly say Alcohol and guns are a good mix?

So, we should ban guns in bars because you THINK that it MIGHT be bad? Do you have any data to support your argument that responsible gun owners are more dangerous after a beer or two, or are you just assuming the worst about people who carry guns?

[Alleya]

The issue of individual bars being allowed to choose whether they permit it or not is moot. It's unenforceable unless you're going to purchase metal detectors and security personnel at your own expense. And then, who the fuck is going to go to a bar with a checkpoint? It was thrown in there to make it look like they weren't forcing lax gun restriction on the populace, when that's what they're doing.

I don't think this will cause a shift either way. It's a concealed weapon. I imagine that the kind of people who want to bring a gun into a bar already do so, law or no. I don't think there's very many people out there who say "I'd love to go armed to a bar, but article B of county bi-law 147-C clearly states..."

[Rhinox]

No, no one in their right mind can, thats why anyone with half a brain will continue to restrict such use in their own bars. The only reason I support this law is not because I like it, but because it gives people the choice without restricting others.

Will you go to one of these bars? I know you won't. Will I? Fuck no. Does it give someone who wants to take the risk? yes, and I could really care less.

Do you think giving people less restrictions will make people do less crime? Like some perverse reverse psychology? aside from some of our board libertarians not many do.

[Melchiah]

So, we should ban guns in bars because you THINK that it MIGHT be bad? Do you have any data to support your argument that responsible gun owners are more dangerous after a beer or two, or are you just assuming the worst about people who carry guns?

Not trying to be a dick here but:

My position is that I know what I'm like after a few beers. I know I'm not going to shoot anyone. What I don't know is what the other guy is like after a few beers. I don't know how unstable or irresponsible he might be under the influence of alcohol. Assuming the worst when it comes to deadly weapons and the consumption of alcohol is the safest way to approach the situation.

[Correction]

It's a little weaselly to say 'responsible gun owners after a beer or two.' Do you call people who drink and drive 'responsible licensed drivers?'

[Melchiah]

I don't think the comparison is apt, Correction.

Edit: I think we're misunderstanding each other.

I know I'm not going to get pissed in a bar and pull my concealed weapon and kill someone. But even at that, I'm responsible enough of a gun owner to not carry in a bar.

[Rhinox]

So, we should ban guns in bars because you THINK that it MIGHT be bad? Do you have any data to support your argument that responsible gun owners are more dangerous after a beer or two, or are you just assuming the worst about people who carry guns?

You are absolutly correct. I mean its not like we have similar restrictions with operating some form of machinery that takes us place to place because of impaired judgement and reactions or anything like that.

[Correction]

I don't think the comparison is apt, Correction.

Edit: I think we're misunderstanding each other.

I know I'm not going to get pissed in a bar and pull my concealed weapon and kill someone. But even at that, I'm responsible enough of a gun owner to not carry in a bar.

I was responding to pohibaba. Maybe we don't need laws that say 'don't get drunk and carry a fucking gun,' but then you'd think we didn't need laws against drunk driving, either. That's all I wanted to say.

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[pohibaba]

You are absolutly correct. I mean its not like we have similar restrictions with operating some form of machinery that takes us place to place because of impaired judgement and reactions or anything like that.

Going along with what you're saying, would it be OK if the guy with the gun blew below a .08?