Arizona moves to allow concealed guns in bars

[Alleya]

I really can't see the point in this bill. Guns and Alcohol don't mix, ever.

It just really sounds like a recipe for disaster. There's only two times I ever carry my gun, and that's when I'm working early mornings or graveyard, or out at night, but never anywhere where there is alcohol. I'd like to think I'm quite a responsible person, but not everyone with a CWL is, and you never know how people will react to a little alcohol.

I'm just not getting this logic. It's been presented in this thread.

What is it about the law that makes people think that this will automatically equate to a significant rise in the number of CC weapons that enter bars already?

[Minions]

I'm just not getting this logic. It's been presented in this thread.

What is it about the law that makes people think that this will automatically equate to a significant rise in the number of CC weapons that enter bars already?

I feel the same way. People are going to do whatever they want. If they want to bring a gun to a bar they are going to. Bill or no Bill. If for some reason people find false comfort in guns being "banned" in certain areas that's fine. However that doesn't change the reality of the situation.

[thestalkmore]

I'm just not getting this logic. It's been presented in this thread.

What is it about the law that makes people think that this will automatically equate to a significant rise in the number of CC weapons that enter bars already?

I'm just not getting this logic. You seriously can't understand the potential for terrible here?

[Alleya]

I'm just not getting this logic. You seriously can't understand the potential for terrible here?

No, seriously...I don't want to go in this circle again. Obviously drunk people with guns is bad.

I'm asking this:

Please explain in depth or provide evidence that changing the law to allow guns in a certain place automatically = a significant increase in the number of guns found in those places.

[thestalkmore]

No, seriously...I don't want to go in this circle again. Obviously drunk people with guns is bad.

I'm asking this:

Please explain in depth or provide evidence that changing the law to allow guns in a certain place automatically = a significant increase in the number of guns found in those places.

I'm really fucking confused why you're asking me to do that. By your own admission drunk people with guns are bad. Who cares what happens to the number of people who decide to bring them into bars? Any number of drunk people with guns in bars is bad. Entertaining the question for some inexplicable reason though, it's absurd to think that, in any circumstance, making concealed firearms in bars legal will make the prevalence of them go down.

[Minions]

I'm really fucking confused why you're asking me to do that. By your own admission drunk people with guns are bad. Who cares what happens to the number of people who decide to bring them into bars? Any number of drunk people with guns in bars is bad. Entertaining the question for some inexplicable reason though, it's absurd to think that, in any circumstance, making concealed firearms in bars legal will make the prevalence of them go down.

The point is the ban is moot if it neither decreases nor increases the amount of people that bring guns in bars.

[thestalkmore]

The point is the ban is moot if it neither decreases nor increases the amount of people that bring guns in bars.

You're right, the illegality of things totally never prevented people from doing them. Ever.

[Minions]

You're right, the illegality of things totally never prevented people from doing them. Ever.

See how far prohibition went, Indeed.

[archibaldcrane]

You're right, the illegality of things totally never prevented people from doing them. Ever.

This bill doesn't allow people with concealed weapons to drink in bars while carrying.

You realize that right?

You want to keep it illegal for CC in bars to prevent people being drunk with weapons - that's your argument right?

It's still illegal for people to drink in bars while carrying. That hasn't changed. This law does not affect whether it is legal to drink in bars while carrying. This law has no relevance to drinking and concealed carry.

It's still illegal.

[thestalkmore]

I redact my argument. Pointless bill is just pointless I guess.

[Gregorio]

I'm just not getting this logic. You seriously can't understand the potential for terrible here?

The potential for terrible exists in many states already. Making it legal in Arizona isn't going to show a sudden jump in gun violence.

Plus, people who were going to carry guns to bars were gunna do it regardless of the laws on the books. The CCW people are the ones who follow the laws, after all.

[Plow]

Only your kids would be retarded as you for not knowing that free speech has nothing to do with screaming to someone "fuck you dirty nigger' its only there to protect you from persecution from the government not from the 6'8 300 lbs 'nigger' that would probably beat the shit out of your retarded children.

such a fail analogy

Yeah, it would be almost as retarded as thinking that having the choice on rather or not you want guns in your bar is a good thing means you're a hypocrite if you don't want them in yours personally.


such a fail existence


also, your response is truly epic considering how on the last page you tried to run away when you realized you were completely wrong by pretending you're the nice guy and talking about how you're being respectful because he didn't come "barging in with insults"

[Beckwin]

this is a pointless bill. no pat downs in average bars to currently check for cw's (probably just the big clubs in scottsdale and phoenix) and there won't be any spot-patdowns on everyone who is drinking in bars after this passes. but still absolutely retarded in principle; there are a lot of asshole drunks in AZ (zomg anecdotal evidence, but hey) and guys deciding to pack when they go out now just because they know they legally can is not a good idea, no matter how small the actual increase in guncrimes in drinking establishments ends up being.

I guess this is just another reason to stay out of shitty bars frequented by the College Republican bro-crowd or dumbass redneck crowd (plenty of those in AZ, trust me).

[archibaldcrane]

Yeah, I mean, why extend people rights, even if giving them rights has no appreciable negative impact?

I don't know why we allow people to do things in a society. Doing things is silly.

[Beckwin]

it can't do any good. and what kind of right is it to carry a hidden weapon whilst boozing? it's pointless because it's unenforceable as is and will continue to be so after the bill passes, except knowing it's legal will create more interest in packing.

let's face it, the only appreciable difference this is gonna make is encouraging average joe cw's to pack when they go to a bar. there's no way anything ends up better for anyone, but there is undeniably potential for things to get worse.

also, we desperately need to avoid the "responsible gun owner" argument in this topic (in fact I have to commend Melchiah for not using it; genuinely surprised) because we're mixing things with booze. all kinds of generally good/responsible people do very bad things when they're inebriated. this simply isn't a case of "well the bad ones will do it anyway!" we contain what you can do while inebriated for that reason.

[Melchiah]

Well, I did use the responsible gun owner argument to be honest.

I said that as a responsible gun owner, I do not carry my weapon when I go drinking.

It's against the law(in Alabama for the time being), and (note the following qualification)as a personal opinion, it's a bad idea.

I'm never the DD. If I go to a bar, I'm going to drink. This isn't to say I get hammered every time I go drinking, but the point remains. Heaven forbid the situation should arise where I felt threatened enough to feel the need to pull a weapon, were I under the influence of alcohol... well I don't need to list the myriad tragedies that could result.

The only people who go to a drinking establishment and don't drink are the DDs, and even those might have a beer or two over the course of an evening. I can't back this up with any hard numbers, but I just have to say I don't feel like it's a good idea.

I know that there are probably a multitude of people who carry in bars illegally right now, but as someone mentioned, making it legal will most likely raise interest in carrying thusly simply because it's legal.

Personal opinion of a gun owner and CW permit holder: Guns in bars is a bad idea.

[Araelus]

Well, I did use the responsible gun owner argument to be honest.

I said that as a responsible gun owner, I do not carry my weapon when I go drinking.

It's against the law(in Alabama for the time being), and (note the following qualification)as a personal opinion, it's a bad idea.

I'm never the DD. If I go to a bar, I'm going to drink. This isn't to say I get hammered every time I go drinking, but the point remains. Heaven forbid the situation should arise where I felt threatened enough to feel the need to pull a weapon, were I under the influence of alcohol... well I don't need to list the myriad tragedies that could result.

...

Personal opinion of a gun owner and CW permit holder: Guns in bars is a bad idea.

I think Melchiah has the strongest argument here, from the standpoint that every right entails certain duties. I also commend him on his observation of the law (both that of Alabama and of his personal convictions) in order to, if he errs, err on the side of safety for himself and others. He also acts in a manner which shows a consistent philosophy of purpose in regards to licensed possession of a concealed weapon.

While it might be nice, in the sense of allowing people to do what they want, to let individual bar owners stipulate their own weapons policy, the result is not necessarily in keeping with why people are licensed to carry in the first place.

The point of having a weapon at all is to protect against death or serious bodily harm through the justified use of lethal force in self-defense. Being licensed to carry a concealed weapon (as opposed to open carry, which if we are going to mention the "Wild West" should be mentioned) removes the visible deterrence factor in favor of criminals not knowing who is armed, causing increased deterrence or at least preventing crimes of opportunity based on overpowering a person to steal their weapon, as happens to police officers on occasion. (cf. FBI reports from their Criminal Justice Information Services Division)

The reason that "alcohol and gunpowder don't mix" has to do with the notion of justified self-defense, and recourse to self-defense can be very complicated. An armed citizen has the duty to retreat unless in their own home, to avoid altercations to begin with, and is held to a "higher standard of care" by the courts in determining fault (these factors vary from state to state, know your local laws.) Now try determining the legal results of being in a bar, where one can reasonably expect to encounter drunk people, and using lethal force to defend against one of those drunk people - or were we concerned with the designated drivers attacking each other?

This point has nothing to do with whether or not someone with a concealed weapon should be drinking. Obviously that is insane. Not only would an intoxicated armed citizen be a liability to himself and others in general, they are generally deemed unfit to justifiably use lethal force, even in a situation that would be otherwise acceptable.

The laws regarding justifiable use of lethal force in self-defense may even rule that no-one may handle a firearm at allwhile under the influence of any substance. Drowsy from allergy medicine? Don't head to the firing range, much less have to defend yourself in a bar fight, even if your BAC is 0.00000.

Please keep in mind that in many places firearms are banned where there is alcohol present at all, far beyond bars, regardless of what the CHL is doing there.

Thus there are other, much more beneficial, changes that could be made dealing with liquor-serving establishments and licensed armed citizens than allowing people into bars with concealed weapons. In many states, any business that sells alcohol under certain classes of license (usually consumption on the premises) prohibits concealed carry, so if you go buy a burrito from Chipotle while armed you are now a felon, because they sell beer. The issues that bars raise is present to some extent anywhere liquor is consumed, and those are the far more interesting cases.

It should be clear that if concealed weapons are allowed in bars they should be permitted in other establishments, but could they be permitted at restaurants and burrito shops without being allowed in bars?

TL;DR:
From a practical standpoint of whether or not bars enforce existing CHL legislation, I think Massad Ayoob said something along the lines of: "I don't go into bars." I tend to agree with his wealth of experience on the matter. Or, as a local police officer likes to say, "Having a gun is a pain in the ass." Albeit a useful one, he'll add.

[archibaldcrane]

it can't do any good. and what kind of right is it to carry a hidden weapon whilst boozing?

You realize this law doesn't provide the right to carry a hidden weapon whilst boozing, right?

I mean, you did read the law we're talking about...

...right?

[Melchiah]

You realize this law doesn't provide the right to carry a hidden weapon whilst boozing, right?

I mean, you did read the law we're talking about...

...right?

Beckwin's point is that it's unenforceable in any pub-type establishment.

If (A) You are legally allowed to carry concealed in a drinking establishment and (B) not allowed to drink while carrying, then the establishment must search every patron upon entering and provide them with something to distinguish to the bartender those who may be served and those who may not.

This automatically defeats the purpose of concealed carry. The doorman knows who is carrying, the bartender knows who is carrying, and anyone paying attention knows who is likely to be carrying.

Zero practicality.

Edit: My argument here is less valid in a restaurant type setting, but the point remains that in order to comply with the law in this instance, any establishment...

Wait. This just occurred to me. If the penalty is upon the individual should he be caught drinking while carrying, then it isn't the bar's responsibility to ensure compliance. I dunno. Have to think on it more.

[archibaldcrane]

Beckwin's point is that it's unenforceable in any pub-type establishment.

How was it enforceable before, when CC was disallowed in bars period? How does the enforceability change one iota?