The New Standard

[Kaeko]

Since the OP's example thread involves me (I'm the 'blogger') I figure I'd give my take on this situation and that particular thread.

There is a very distinct set of people that post mostly standard as opposed to mostly advanced. I feel that what made standard different and more forgiving wasn't necessarily the title or description of the sub-forum, but simply the types of posters who choose to frequent there. Every poster is different and some posters are more forgiving than others.

I'll give you the case of a now-banned poster named "Ahlah". He later returned as the poster "C&O" but none of us knew this until later on when a mod linked the 2 posters by IP after they started sounding too similar. I'm not purposely trying to make fun of him (he's an OK guy imo despite what the forum thinks of him), this is just the best example I can find. Anyways, here are 2 threads involving this player, one from standard and one from advanced.

Advanced
http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/73690...blossom-2.html

Standard
http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/73597...tanking-2.html

In the advanced thread, the question is about Death Blossom's effectiveness on HNMs, specifically Byakko. It almost instantly turns into a drama thread. If I recall correctly, this is the thread that got him banned.

In the standard thread, the question is about RDM/NIN tanking and he is now posting under a new name C&O (but we don't know this at the time). This fails to reach drama status and I feel like this thread is truly one of the best threads you can find on BG regarding endgame RDM tanking mechanics. At the very end, you find another poster, Yarko, who posts some extremely impressive RDM solo tanks on Cerb and Ixion.

The difference here is who's posting in response. In both cases, you have a very volatile poster in Ahlah who's prone to creating drama, but the 2 threads are handled in very different manners. There is really nothing inherently different about these threads other than who is actually responding - and this leads to whether or not a flame war ensues or the chance for good information to come about.

**********************

There is nothing inherently different about the new system vs. the old split advanced/standard system. What makes a thread go into epic flame war status vs. maintaining a semi-intelligent discourse has only to do with who's posting replies. The big question is...

Are advanced readers capable of holding their tongue and being civil?

The old standard frequenters generally were. But by merging the 2 sections, you combine us, and unfortunately, the fact that the standard readers are civil won't prevent flame wars if the advanced posters egg it on. It takes only 2 to start one, and you can't really stop one outside of a mod lock.

**********************

Lastly, there is an awful lot of info BG readers are missing out on because of the perceived attitude BG is known for in the advanced section. There are many lurkers of this forum that have incredibly vital information - information even the most jaded BG vet would die to know - that have told me they won't ever post that sort of info here and would rather just keep it underground because of the response they 'know' or perceive to 'know' they will get. No one wants their topic destroyed, their LS or strategy nitpicked to death, or every little perceived flaw to get laughed at. This isn't being a pussy or having 'sand in the vagina', it's just common sense. Who wants to put forth tremendous effort to share information when they feel they will just get nitpicked and collectively put down?

I find BG still by far the best place for information in this game and to discuss strategy; however, advanced is rarely the section for this now. For me personally, I learn the most from BG via PMs now. I don't post very serious threads openly looking for answers, I just go directly to certain players because we can have the best discussions this way. This doesn't help the average reader or poster though.

I know the mods work incredibly hard, especially Sono and the last thing I'd ever do is openly straight up bash BG forums considering the role it has played in popularizing my own writing; however, I do think things can be improved, and I sense the mods felt this way as well when making this change. I don't have a real practical solution to this, but I do have an idealistic one:

When you post replies on BG, just think are you posting to win an argument (aka to prove yourself more knowledgeable)? Or are you posting to contribute? To me I don't care if I lose the argument as long as it's a good argument. I don't have a problem saying openly "Suiram knows more than me about this", which is largely what stopped the drama in the OP's example thread. There are some posters here who would rather be shot in the arm than lose an argument. That's the problem. I doubt it'll ever be fixed but whatever.

TL;DR Version: QQ

[Spira]

I definitely agree with OP and do agree with Kaeko...

"old advanced' was heavily stifled by who's-who politics and the fact that an innocent question could be turned into drama thread based solely on people who didn't like other people who were responding.

the bulk of the derailing of perfectly good topics often happen simply because people can't keep it civil and know when to shut up. People really need to sit down and think, if I can't contributed to this topic constructively, not even to add humor, I should just shut up - and this is true for a whole bunch of 'meme's like 'this is advanced?', IBTL, and redundant statements that we've all heard before...

of course, getting people to shut up with the useless stuff isn't going to be the only thing to do, we'd need to see people open up to wanting to contribute information.
modding with a heavy hand may work but it also makes people hold back in fear of (ok maybe not fear, but not wanting any) backlash or moderation...

theres a likelihood that this is a cyclic thing as well, where the various forums can take turns being the 'resource haven' for FFXI. When one place turns to crap, the good people who are willing to contribute run elsewhere, and when their information takes root, the scum follow and mess things up. I've seen it with alla and KI too and there will eventually be a point of redemption, but this is where everyone will need to step in and make things better to 'speed up' the process..

I love to read BG because it has often lively informative discussions on current general popular FFXI topics and because it has a wide reader and poster base, gets its responses really fast. i wish the same could be said about KI, which i'm a mod at, but its redeeming quality imo is its job forums, some of which have spirited communities.
in any case, I hope the quality of threads will pick up after the new merging

edit:

tl;dr version

people need to stop being assholes as if they're entitled to it here.

[Moosey]

Firstly, I think the OP is great, and those who said they didn't read the whole thing should reconsider.

Secondly, this thread is turning into a good example of the potential of the "New Advanced/Standard" forum.

While there are some less than thoughtful replies to the OP, a surprising amount of replies I have found to be quite intriguing in that they were mentally stimulating and well thought out.

It doesn't take a lot of effort, but I think that the majority of the people who frequent BG are tired of the drama and wish to have the "old BG" back so to speak, wherein this was a place where new and/or interesting information about FFXI could be discovered and discussed.

I think it is definitely possible, and quite likely that this forum can become that once again.

Like Kaeko said, are you here to win an arguement or here to contribute?

[Darwinion]

Let's be honest about this.... it's been coming for some time. I'd actually stopped visiting the advanced forum some time ago (like months). All you would get in there was petty drama or some 'tard replying to some guys post with "This is advanced?", together with some copy/pasted shit about events in game that most of us don't bother with anymore anyway. If I want drama I can just visit the Player warnings section and look for anyone related to my server. The regular posters of Advanced were basically disappearing up their own arses fast, and it didn't look good for BlueGartr to have it's "main" forum section ruined by idiots/back seat modders who think they have an epeen to stroke.

I never saw the thread that the OP speaks of. But it doesn't surprise me in the least. The Standard forum had been a better read for quite some time now. I've been learning stuff about my non-main jobs and sub jobs there for a while. I don't profess to know everything about the game like most did in Advanced. The admins could have just kept the Standard forum as it was and just renamed "Advanced" to something like "Events/Drama and knobhead section"

[Belkin]

Let's be honest about this.... it's been coming for some time. I'd actually stopped visiting the advanced forum some time ago (like months). All you would get in there was petty drama or some 'tard replying to some guys post with "This is advanced?", together with some copy/pasted shit about events in game that most of us don't bother with anymore anyway. If I want drama I can just visit the Player warnings section and look for anyone related to my server. The regular posters of Advanced were basically disappearing up their own arses fast, and it didn't look good for BlueGartr to have it's "main" forum section ruined by idiots/back seat modders who think they have an epeen to stroke.

This.


And to the guy who said he wants a "drama free" "old BG" back - I would like to tell you those two things do not belong in the same sentence. Old BG was drama driven! This new age drama is worthless I say!

Edit: Parklife's LS had people behind the rock.

[Drex]

Meh, my solution would've been:

-Merge Advanced and Events
-Leave Standard
-Create a sub-forum for news posts

That way Advanced could be for event and HNM strategies, ranging from PW and AV shit to low-manning limbus, while Standard would still be there for gear debates, X job vs. Y, party setups, subjob discussion, random quest info, etc.

I was pretty surprised to log in and find Standard and Events, two of my favorite sections, gone and replaced by a complete 180 from the "old Advanced" attitude in their place.

[Mojo]

Gonna definitely agree with the "long time coming" sentiment. BG could have been leagues better without the excessive moderation and elitism.

[Fallyn]

Gonna definitely agree with the "long time coming" sentiment. BG could have been leagues better without the excessive moderation and elitism.

"Elitism" more than "excessive moderation", though.

[byte]

I agree. Where the fuck did standard go? Advanced is an awful flametrollfest. Standard actually had useful info and serious endgame discussion.

[donnie]

I rarely check advanced section , and usually would go to the standard forum as first stop, and I can honestly say every time i visit it there has to be something interesting to read. and if anything should be done is to change the name of advanced to something totally new such as (End gamers lounge) with subsections of ( "drama goes here" , "SE updates and announcments")

[isladar]

My dears, you realize you've all contributed to a rather lovely, thoughtful, informative thread... in Advanced?

[LD]

Personally, I've grown to take efficiency over societal shifts. This merging denies both.

Spoiler: show

Words.

I'd have to agree that this forum should be more like standard than adv, but adv was more like standard once upon a time, so basically nothing has to change except the people. Laff. -_-

[Sho]

My dears, you realize you've all contributed to a rather lovely, thoughtful, informative thread... in Advanced?

One could argue that's because there is two fewer forums to post it in.

If it was up to me, I would have kept Advanced and Standard separate, swapped names and kept rules exactly the same. While BG is an informative place, a lot of people come here for the drama posts, and also for threads that boast showing off their ultimate accomplishments which is cool as well, just shouldn't have been called Advanced Discussion.

I don't think at all that merging both forums was a good idea, and it's a step backwards. Also another thing that pisses me off is when there is a new update note on POL, I have no clue why 2-4 people must feel they need to race to be the first to post the same new topic as fast as possible, it should be something handled by a mod, or kept in an entirely different section so it can be archived.

[Cadsuane]

Even if advanced becomes standard, and I'm sufficiently persuaded by the OP that a forum like standard has been a positive thing, I still think advanced performed a function that it won't be able to now that moderation will be stricter. Concerns about over-moderation have already been eloquently described so, I'll just say that pointing out a falsehood (through trolling, for instance) points out a truth as well.

[Talisien]

One could argue that's because there is two fewer forums to post it in.

I would've posted this thread in Standard if I had a choice.

If there's a question of why, Kaeko's post hit it exactly.

"Who wants to put forth tremendous effort to share information when they feel they will just get nitpicked and collectively put down?"

This time, right now, is a unique opportunity to change the perception of BG Advanced, if the mods want to. But the stance will have to be strong and enforced before it will stick.

I think Kaeko's post is a good start to the issues that need to be addressed to create a mission statement for New Advanced.

Isladar is right, this thread can exist anywhere, but the perception of the forum will keep others silent for fear of ridicule and will stifle creativity, thought and expression. You, as mods, are the only ones who can attack that perception head on, with the rules and their enforcement.

[Spagnutty]

Long time lurker, first time poster...

I'd like to echo some of the earlier statements about too many sub-forums being suddenly merged. ...I hate it!

I really wish we could have Advanced (PoL news updates, endgame events, AV+PW), and Standard (Civil and productive discussion). Maybe even put the news updates in Standard. The Advanced name attitude baggage could still be addressed with a name change to Endgame or something along those lines.

Help us Sonomaa, you're our only hope!

[Damane]

I agree with the OP, standard had way more information and nice discussion going on. I am kind of disoriented after the advanced + standard merge into new advanced. Fear of posting new topics.

[Sonomaa]

rebumped and re-worded the original standard rules and renamed the forum slightly.

give it a few weeks people, if its still having problems, we will re-work it. I am going to split off news eventually

[Seraph]

FFXI: Standardly Advanced


I don't mind people being forced to tone it down a little bit, but I almost feel like im being ripped off because i have fewer forums to read now. D:

[Panthera]

Advanced is the last vestige of the elitism that has choked the life out of this forum. And though it has been earned with the successes of those years, it results in a forum that does not encourage discussion, but rather stifles it. [/I]

^This.

I agree 100% with the OP.


I think the transition could have been done more smoothly. The original sticky for "The New Advanced" was pretty vague. The new one is better, but i think it needs more specificity. So, no asking about how to cheat, and no personal stories about leaving and returning from the game but, is everything else fair game?

What constitutes "serious topics," and what does not?

"Endgame FFXI, Events, advanced theories." This is a merger of the Standard and Advanced sections, so i am still safe to ask, "Which weapons types should a Dark Knight use at which levels in exp parties?" for example.

However, I do appreciate that the forum is TRYING to change, and adopt a civil tone, no matter what the subject matter. /cheer