Ranger bow/xbow delay

[Astarael]

Ok noob question time, and I feel strangely dirty, like I'm breaking some kind of rule posting this in here, but without standard it's not nowhere to go.

Ranger bows have 1 delay, and arrows have another delay. is it the combined delay that produces how often you can fire?

We have a die hard ranger in our linkshell who claims the ammo delay is only to calculate TP gain, and only weapon delay affects your shot speed, but she has been wrong before about alot of things, and this contravenes what I always thought, so i figured a post was worth it.

I've never properly played ranger, so me being wrong is an easy possibility

[Argettio]

The delay on the bow is the time taken to 'aim' (the time taken from drawing your bow to firing)

The delay on ammo is the time taken to 'reload' (the delay before you can use your /ra again without getting the error message).

The combined figure is used to calculate TP gain.

[Spider-Dan]

Incorrect.

Compound ranged weapons (bow+arrow, xbow+bolts, gun+bullet, cannon+shell) have several phases:

Phase 1: Aim- Take the delay on the weapon itself and divide by 110. This number represents the number of seconds from the time you push CTRL+D to the time your shot is fired. This is the only part of a ranged attack that is affected by Snapshot or Rapid Shot.

Phase 2: Store Weapon- Your character puts the weapon away and you cannot execute any other action. This phase lasts 1.7-1.8 seconds, regardless of weapon.

Phase 3: Free Time- You cannot yet execute another ranged attack, but your melee autoattack timer is unpaused and you can melee (or execute other non-ranged actions, IIRC). This phase lasts ~1.1 seconds.

The only affect that ammo delay has on a ranged weapon is on the amount of TP it generates (TP calculation uses weapon+ammo delay as a singular calculation). Longer delay ammo is better than shorter delay ammo, full stop.

The easy method I use for calculating the real delay of a ranged attack is:

([weapon delay * (1 - Snapshot)] + 313) / 110

This gives you a pretty close estimate of the net delay of your weapon.

[Callisto]

I'm curious as to when RAtk/STR/MND(for Holy Bolts/etc is calcuated then, if you could set up your macro to maximize Rapid/Snap then swap in the damage gear, similar to Fast Cast with spells. Well, that and if it'd make enough of a difference to bother.

[Kirschy]

Incorrect.

Compound ranged weapons (bow+arrow, xbow+bolts, gun+bullet, cannon+shell) have several phases:

Phase 1: Aim- Take the delay on the weapon itself and divide by 110. This number represents the number of seconds from the time you push CTRL+D to the time your shot is fired. This is the only part of a ranged attack that is affected by Snapshot or Rapid Shot.

Phase 2: Store Weapon- Your character puts the weapon away and you cannot execute any other action. This phase lasts 1.7-1.8 seconds, regardless of weapon.

Phase 3: Free Time- You cannot yet execute another ranged attack, but your melee autoattack timer is unpaused and you can melee (or execute other non-ranged actions, IIRC). This phase lasts ~1.1 seconds.

The only affect that ammo delay has on a ranged weapon is on the amount of TP it generates (TP calculation uses weapon+ammo delay as a singular calculation). Longer delay ammo is better than shorter delay ammo, full stop.

The easy method I use for calculating the real delay of a ranged attack is:

([weapon delay * (1 - Snapshot)] + 313) / 110

This gives you a pretty close estimate of the net delay of your weapon.

This testing was done by VZX a while back, and inspired me to run some tests of my own. I only started the initial testing, and never finished, but figured it's worth posting the results~

I used DRK and RNG for testing, since my RNG has Snapshot/RapidShot. Fraps was used to record my shots.

I found 4 distinct phases of a ranged attack:

Phase 1: Start~ This is the animation that starts it off by taking out the Bow.
Phase 2: Aim~ This is where the start animation stops, the shooter aims.
Phase 3: Shoot~ This is where the animation changes, and the ammunition fires. Then the bow is put away.
Phase 4: Reload?~ This is where the idle animation plays, but you are unable to use items, JA, or shoot for a certian period of time.

Phase 1 always held a constant of ~58 frames/sec. Phase 2 varied by Weapon Delay, and was modified by Snapshot/Rapidshot. Phase 3 was constant at 54 frames. (I threw out phase 4 data due to inconsistancies /w lag.)

Rapid shot appeared to work like conserve MP in that you had a chance to reduce Weapon Delay by 1/2-1/16th, but there wasn't enough data to confirm.

[Sonomaa]

if only kabura arrows didnt cost eleventy billion gil Id full time them.
ebow is base TP 14 (15 with rajas)
yoichi is base TP 15 (16 and sometimes 17 with rajas)
yoichi with a proper sam roll is 21-22
all shot with demon arrows

not really amazingly useful information and I dont use crossbow but that might help someone looking to get some raw numbers for standard TP gain

[Spider-Dan]

I used DRK and RNG for testing, since my RNG has Snapshot/RapidShot. Fraps was used to record my shots.

I found 4 distinct phases of a ranged attack:

Phase 1: Start~ This is the animation that starts it off by taking out the Bow.
Phase 2: Aim~ This is where the start animation stops, the shooter aims.
Phase 3: Shoot~ This is where the animation changes, and the ammunition fires. Then the bow is put away.
Phase 4: Reload?~ This is where the idle animation plays, but you are unable to use items, JA, or shoot for a certian period of time.

Phase 1 always held a constant of ~58 frames/sec. Phase 2 varied by Weapon Delay, and was modified by Snapshot/Rapidshot.

So you didn't test this with Loxley Bow, then.

Rapid Shot, in particular, clearly modifies what you refer to as "Phase 1" delay. Rapid Shot procs on Loxley Bow interrupt the drawstring animation quite conspicuously.

I'm also unsure as to what you mean by "58 frames/sec." Isn't the game capped at 30FPS?

[Spider-Dan]

if only kabura arrows didnt cost eleventy billion gil Id full time them.
ebow is base TP 14 (15 with rajas)
yoichi is base TP 15 (16 and sometimes 17 with rajas)
yoichi with a proper sam roll is 21-22
all shot with demon arrows

not really amazingly useful information and I dont use crossbow but that might help someone looking to get some raw numbers for standard TP gain

E-Bow+demons/kaburas is 14.8 TP/shot
Needs STP+13 for 6-hit
Needs STP+36 for 5-hit

Yoichinoyumi+demons/kaburas is 15.1 TP/shot
Needs STP+11 for 6-hit
Needs STP+33 for 5-hit

O-bow+holy/DSB is 15.2 TP/shot
Needs STP+10 for 6-hit
Needs STP+32 for 5-hit

HF+1+silvers is 17.2 TP/shot
Needs STP+17 for 5-hit
Needs STP+46 for 4-hit

Annihilator+silvers is 16.6 TP/shot
Needs STP+1 for 6-hit
Needs STP+21 for 5-hit

And not that it was asked, but shooting DPS (with v-shot+max snap merits):

HF+1+silvers- 17.06 DPS
E-bow+kaburas- 17.58 DPS
O-bow+DSB- 17.93 DPS
Yoichinoyumi+kaburas- 18.31 DPS
Annihilator+silvers- 18.55 DPS

For the record, if you aren't fulltiming kaburas, you should probably be using O-bow+DSB instead of E-bow+demons.

[Kirschy]

So you didn't test this with Loxley Bow, then.

Rapid Shot, in particular, clearly modifies what you refer to as "Phase 1" delay. Rapid Shot procs on Loxley Bow interrupt the drawstring animation quite conspicuously.

I'm also unsure as to what you mean by "58 frames/sec." Isn't the game capped at 30FPS?

Yea, sorry I meant 58 frames/phase.

I didn't use Loxley bow, so if what you say is true, then my data doesn't hold. I used 4 bows with varying delays that were able to used on RNG + DRK. 540 Delay, 450, 360, and 261. If I continue the testing, I'll make sure to get a Loxley Bow~

[Sonomaa]

For the record, if you aren't fulltiming kaburas, you should probably be using O-bow+DSB instead of E-bow+demons.

Kabura quivers are 180k a stack on bahamut
demon quivers are 60k a stack on bahamut
on the price vs performance system, I will simply go broke wayyyyy too fast using kabura full time. Im sorry but thats not worth it.

I also kept damage up quite consistently with our obow/dsb rangers, usually beating them in dot, so my ebow/demon was fine. Now I just use yoichi/demon and spam namas but Im going to see what the cost comparison is to getting kaburas crafted vs buying them from the AH

[Spider-Dan]

My statement was not a commentary on the decision of kaburas vs. demons. I'm saying that (combat merits aside) if one doesn't want to use kaburas with their E-bow, O-bow+DSB is a better solution than E-bow+demons. Yoichi obviously changes things.

[Talint]

Is going for a 5-hit build on RNG w/ E.Bow worth it? And if so, what builds do people use?

[ringthree]

Yea, sorry I meant 58 frames/phase.

I didn't use Loxley bow, so if what you say is true, then my data doesn't hold. I used 4 bows with varying delays that were able to used on RNG + DRK. 540 Delay, 450, 360, and 261. If I continue the testing, I'll make sure to get a Loxley Bow~

I don't know if this would mean that your assumptions are incorrect necessarily. It could be the factor of the bow firing so quickly that it just interrupts the first animation phase. Spider-Dan's explanation seems to agree with this. It could just be a simple confusion between the two different definitions of "phases" in this case.

Dan's question does work to perhaps rethink our belief about what effect Rapid Shot has though.

[ringthree]

Is going for a 5-hit build on RNG w/ E.Bow worth it? And if so, what builds do people use?

That is a really big "depends". It depends on what you have to give up and when you use your TP. For XP I think it would definitely be favorable if you can get to a 5-hit build. For anything that could eat your face? Probably not.

This is assuming your are using Sidewinder.

[Raylinn]

Is going for a 5-hit build on RNG w/ E.Bow worth it? And if so, what builds do people use?

Not really. Trying to get to 36 StoreTP in addition to /sam requires:
Mekki Shakki
Rajas Ring
Skadi's Chausses
Plus an additional 4 from either:
Mirke Body
Moogle Salade
Chiv Chain, Brutal Earring, Ecphoria Ring, Bushido Cape, or an augmented item.

Going for 5-hit with Obow/DSB is makes mush more sense requiring only 32.
FFXIGEAR.com
Need to fulltime the pieces, but they aren't a bad trade.

[Spider-Dan]

I don't know if this would mean that your assumptions are incorrect necessarily. It could be the factor of the bow firing so quickly that it just interrupts the first animation phase. Spider-Dan's explanation seems to agree with this. It could just be a simple confusion between the two different definitions of "phases" in this case.

Dan's question does work to perhaps rethink our belief about what effect Rapid Shot has though.

I think separating "phase 1" and "phase 2" is unnecessary. Combining them into a single phase (based on weapon delay) already explains everything, including Loxley Rapid Shot. Splitting the phases also creates a bunch of other problems (gun and xbow don't take 58 frames to ready, for one).

[Spider-Dan]

Going for 5-hit with Obow/DSB is makes mush more sense requiring only 32.
FFXIGEAR.com
Need to fulltime the pieces, but they aren't a bad trade.

Actually, I'm going with a slightly different setup.

I'm going to go STP+4/Evasion+10 and Snap+3/Haste+3 on my MKD hat specifically for 5-hit /SAM O-bow build.

Mekki Shakki
MKD hat
Rajas Ring
Enkidu's Subligar

There are two major benefits, as I see it:

1) I don't have to join a Salvage group just for Skadi pants
2) More importantly, this allows me much more flexibility on WS. With this combo, I can use whatever hat/pants I want for WS without messing up 5-hit build.

[Thunder]

Do you use mirke for TP, dan? If so, wouldn't putting 10racc 5ratk on the head instead of stp and putting 4stp on your body instead of the 10ratk or 10racc be better?

[Spider-Dan]

Do you use mirke for TP, dan? If so, wouldn't putting 10racc 5ratk on the head instead of stp and putting 4stp on your body instead of the 10ratk or 10racc be better?

No, for two reasons:

1) I'll usually use Osode over Mirke for holy bolts
2) I still use Mirke for gun

With gun, I normally use ZGB+Mirke (Snap/RATK). I'm not dropping ZGB for Anwig, and STP+4 on Mirke does nothing for gun.

[ringthree]

I think separating "phase 1" and "phase 2" is unnecessary. Combining them into a single phase (based on weapon delay) already explains everything, including Loxley Rapid Shot. Splitting the phases also creates a bunch of other problems (gun and xbow don't take 58 frames to ready, for one).

Good point. I think a more universal idea of what delays effect which phase, and exactly what the phases are would be very helpful for everyone.