Use less electricity and get charged more for it

[Seraph]

Don't get too caught up in the headline. I'd consider this to be the pertinent paragraph:

The problem is they don't explain the context of the savings. Is that over old rates, or are they saying "we will charge you 10-20% less of an increase than we were planning to"?

[archibaldcrane]

WTF?!?!?

Those are opt-in by the consumers and come with electricity bill savings. The customers choose to give up a little control over their A/C to get savings (beyond just the savings when their A/C gets "flexed") on their bills.

[archibaldcrane]

The problem is they don't explain the context of the savings. Is that over old rates, or are they saying "we will charge you 10-20% less of an increase than we were planning to"?

It says right there that rates will go up about 3% because of this new plan to pass along efficiency expenses to the customer. If you participate in the efficiency plans (depending on the plan - the thermostat one is a good example, posted above) you will save 10-20% off what you would otherwise be paying.

I'm not saying that this is definitely a good thing, I just want people to actually understand what they are bawwwing about, because it doesn't feel like they do.

[Seraph]

Those are opt-in by the consumers and come with electricity bill savings. The customers choose to give up a little control over their A/C to get savings (beyond just the savings when their A/C gets "flexed") on their bills.

That's so stupid though. The easier, cheaper solution is "just don't have an air conditioner." You know that the times those people will actually want it cranking is when it would get shut off. That seems so counter productive to me. Spend money buying an air conditioner, and money installing the controlling hardware just so that when you might really want to use it you wont be able to.

[archibaldcrane]

That's so stupid though. The easier, cheaper solution is "just don't have an air conditioner." You know that the times those people will actually want it cranking is when it would get shut off. That seems so counter productive to me.

So don't opt-in then.

I don't get it - if people think it's a good trade-off, why do you care?

[Seraph]

So don't opt-in then.

I don't get it - if people think it's a good trade-off, why do you care?

It just only really seems useful for people who don't know how to manage their energy usage. I guess that is potentially useful, but if I turn on my air conditioner, chances are I really really do not want to be hot anymore.

[Tomk]

Considering that they only "shed" people's AC 4 times last year that does not equate to %10-%20 savings. They are using programmable t-stats for this and they program them to adjust the temperature when you are not at home. That is the savings.

Buy a programmable t-stat and install it yourself, don't opt-in to the peak load shedding plan if you don't like them shutting you down when you most need it. You get the savings without giving up control. win/win.

Buy compact florescent light bulbs and turn them off when not in the room, use a programmable t-stat, replace your furnace air filter QUARTERLY, make sure that your appliances are Energy Star, turn off your unnecessary computers and unplug game consoles when not in use, turn your water heater down to 120 deg F, and double check the seals on your windows and doors so you don't need to participate in any utility "savings programs".

Like i mentioned before the utility companies only care about peak demand. Basically this is the time when they can't keep up with the energy demands. You don't' hear them complaining about the off-peak times when a significant portion of energy is lost in the grid and their saving programs reflect the fact that they don't want you to reduce over-all usage.

tldr; Don't trust McDonalds to tell you how to eat properly and don't trust your energy provider to tell you how to save energy.

[archibaldcrane]

don't trust your energy provider to tell you how to save energy.

I've gotta be honest, I don't get the vitriol. I'm looking at the Kansas City Power and Light website right now KCP&L Home Page, Kansas City electric company and their energy saving tips and programs look pretty standard and solid...ya know, kind of like the advice you just gave, including rebates and energy incentive programs to upgrade to more efficient bulbs and fixtures, etc. etc.

Beyond the alarmist topic headline, I feel this hysteria is unearned.

[aduidarnenye]

My fiance and I managed to drop our power bill by $50 this month! I'm quite proud.

[archibaldcrane]

Canadian electricity doesn't count, you guys have an unlimited supply of polar bears to burn to produce it or something.

[Kiro]

Pro-tip. Get into your circuit board and turn all that shit off.

My electricity bill is tiny as fuck because I don't use the electric heaters in the house in the winter. Bitches don't think to wear sweaters or hoodies while indoors & shit.

[archibaldcrane]

Your house has electric heaters? Natural gas or gtfo.

[Kiro]

I live in the goddamn city, gimme a break.

[Ramor]

Simply wearing sweaters and shit in the winter doesn't work for everyone, when it drops to like -20 one night you let me know how those sweatshirts are keeping you warm

[Tomk]

I've gotta be honest, I don't get the vitriol. I'm looking at the Kansas City Power and Light website right now KCP&L Home Page, Kansas City electric company and their energy saving tips and programs look pretty standard and solid...ya know, kind of like the advice you just gave, including rebates and energy incentive programs to upgrade to more efficient bulbs and fixtures, etc. etc.

Beyond the alarmist topic headline, I feel this hysteria is unearned.

I understand your point and tbh I haven't really made mine yet so here it goes:

Latent and sensible solar heat loads are significant (heat from the sun) so I don't want to undermine the significance but if we look at load profiles we can easily see that daytime usage far outweighs nighttime energy usage.

Where is everyone during the day? At work. So it stands to reason that most of the electrical demand comes from commercial/industrial companies.

I want to preface what I am about to say. Businesses are literally light years beyond what is widely known about energy optimization. Compact florescent bulbs, thermal storage, enthalpy economizers, energy recovery heat exchangers, etc. have all been used in commercial applications for decades now. All of the most brilliant energy engineers have been working on commercial/industrial buildings since before most of us were born.

That being said; it's not enough. Companies are motivated to save money but they can just as easily pass along the cost if any justification can be seen. Also unless the actual process creates pollutants, no external pressure is applied. So the number of energy conscientious companies is small.

For example: most people's houses might have a single 60 watt bulb per room, while office spaces must be lit to almost daylight levels. If an office temperature varies from between 70deg F and 74 deg F everyone starts bitching up a storm yet when most of them get home they are happy with temperatures between 65 deg F and 80 deg F. Process loads are almost always written off as necessary evils and little to no effort is given to their energy reduction.

What i am basically trying to say is that I kind of take offense to the fact that so much pressure is applied on residential usage when it isn't the bulk of the actual problem and no external pressure is being applied to the problem due to the almighty dollar.

[Plow]

I've gotta be honest, I don't get the vitriol. I'm looking at the Kansas City Power and Light website right now KCP&L Home Page, Kansas City electric company and their energy saving tips and programs look pretty standard and solid...ya know, kind of like the advice you just gave, including rebates and energy incentive programs to upgrade to more efficient bulbs and fixtures, etc. etc.

Beyond the alarmist topic headline, I feel this hysteria is unearned.

I think you're the only person in the thread that actually read the article.

It's really right on par with, say, building a new, more efficient power plant, and being allowed to pass on some of the cost to your customers, rather than the tradition of eating the initial cost yourself, in order to save customers money.


Not to mention, things like programmable thermostats do a hell of a lot more than just allowing them to override settings, they're one of the biggest advances in national energy efficiency in recent history.



Sorry people, we don't get to become a more efficient and healthier country at the raw expense of "big electric," they're not the ones leaving the light on all night in a few million homes every day.

[Tomk]

So programs that support the continued usage of extremely ungreen coal power generation is a good thing?

Appealing to sympathetic individuals so they assuage the usage of gluttonous corporations is all fine and good?

[archibaldcrane]

So programs that support the continued usage of extremely ungreen coal power generation is a good thing?

We should all just stop using electricity entirely so that coal plants are no longer necessary.

What are you talking about?

[Tomk]

I admit that it is based on the assumption that new plant designs will seek fuels other than coal, but this is my reference:

Usually, regulators allow utilities to recoup the cost of building power plants or buying more power to meet customer demand.

[archibaldcrane]

Honestly, until nuclear power is accepted wide-scale in America, coal won't be replaced on a national level. Certain regions can take advantage of hydroelectric or geothermal plants, but electricity doesn't travel as well as would be nice. Also, I assume that the new plants they would build would supplement, not replace, the current plants, but I'm not sure about that.