Whats Better? II

[Callisto]

Nah we'll stick with Haub+1, though going N.Hands(also minor detail but KJ is Frag/Scis so maybe want a different Gorget lol)

[BerenTebogo]

I just clicked first gorget I saw. Just wanted to give a general idea :3

[Callisto]

I've heard of Einherjar bonus and Dynamis Bonus thus far. Is it possible KJ gets the damage bonus in situations with Double Dark?

Hah, this was exactly what I was going to say, thinking Namis/Apollyon/Ein being the most likely 'non-merit' things you'd use a multi-hit for.

[Callisto]

I just clicked first gorget I saw. Just wanted to give a general idea :3

Just checking lol, I was a tard and used Soil for Death Blossom for about 3 months before I realized I my script was off.

[BerenTebogo]

So anyways back to the question for the mathgeeks. With all things being equal (i.e. take lolibris as your basis for testing) Which will yield the highest AVERAGE WS over the course of a party? KJ or RR?

Edited links for KJ set to be based on this. http://ffxigear.com/?ref=14535 +1 STR and +1-2 ACC

[Callisto]

please point out if I fuck up some math here...

k, I put in N.hands/PCC(just to make the Acc value accurate, FFXIGear doesn't count gorgets) for the KJ set and Warwolf for the RR set...going to assume an average Chaos(going with 30% for simplicity), zerk/merits/Hasso, and cheapkabobs. Went with Lv. 82 lolibri, 327 defense/67 VIT.

136 STR/776 attack on KJ, 133/771 for RR (both sets come out to 406 Acc not counting Hasso, so we'll call it capped on both).

Going to kinda use my own pDIF stuff here(going to go with the 1.05x new cap, 2.52 normal/3.15 crits, I found the low modifier to be -.88~ when I tried testing it myself so give me some leeway there, it's consistent between both WS either way).

KJ: 2.0 cRatio, avg pDIF 2.08(2.52/1.64)

RR: 2.0 cRatio, avg pDIF 2.08(2.52/1.64), crit avg pDIF 2.71(3.15/2.27)

KJ: ((96 + 18(fSTR) + 56(WSC)) * 1.1 * 2.08) + 2((96 + 18 +56) * 1.0 * 2.08)
(170 * 1.1 * 2.08) + 2(170 * 1.0 * 2.08)
391 + 706 = 1097

RR(1 crit): ((96 + 17 + 38) * 1.1 * 2.04) + ((96 +17 + 38) * 1.0 * 2.04)) + ((96 + 17 +38)) * 1.0 * 2.71))
(151 * 1.1 * 2.08) + (151 * 1.0 * 2.08) + (151 *1.0 * 2.71)
345 + 314 + 409 = 1068

RR(2 crits): ((96 + 17 + 38) * 1.1 * 2.04) + 2((96 + 17 +38)) * 1.0 * 2.71))
(151 * 1.1 * 2.08) + 2(151 *1.0 * 2.71)
345 + 818 = 1163

I assumed that the crits won't occur on the first hit since odds are it'll be on a different one...unless I fucked up my math if you're getting 1 crit KJ should be slightly better, 2+ it's all RR.

edit: If Max or someone could check my math I'd appreciate it

[Callisto]

ftr Sath I used these 2 sets

KJ: FFXIGEAR.com

RR: FFXIGEAR.com

with Berserk down crits would obviously have more of an impact

[BerenTebogo]

Unless I'm horribly mistaken KJ can't crit outside of MS? It's just the 50% STR mod.

[Callisto]

No that's correct, I didn't count any crits for it, only for RR.

edit: 2crit RR math had an error due to copypasta, fixed that

[BerenTebogo]

Oh I misread the tl;dr. So in 75-80% of the time? (all the times you wont x2 crit) KJ will return higher average damage.

That correct?

[Callisto]

lol found another spot where I copypasta'd the wrong thing, had KJ pDIF in RR math, fixed, leans things a bit further towards KJ.

[Callisto]

Oh I misread the tl;dr. So in 75-80% of the time? (all the times you wont x2 crit) KJ will return higher average damage.

That correct?

Under ideal(ish) conditions, yes...with zerk down things will lean back towards RR though.

[BerenTebogo]

Well as it's known I started over in late-march. I /finally/ almost have Perdu Gaxe. Should be about 7-9 more days if we dont fail assaults so I can finally start nyzul progress.

Maybe a month-ish from now I can throw down some parses if I also find a pair of Hachi legs for less than 20m and we can really look into it.

[Callisto]

Ugh I'm a boob, I thought cheapkabobs capped at 55 not 60, so my initial fuckup on the RR math was actually correct.

[Rocl]

Note to self: Do not ask Callisto for mathin's.

[Callisto]

Hey I get it right eventually, lol. I haven't had to do this stuff in like 5 years!

I had to google how to do weighted averages yesterday b/c I had totally forgotten.

For what it's worth it looks like with Berserk down RR will win with at least one crit, so I guess I'd go with use RR with that down then with it up it's whichever you're more comfy with.

[Fogo]

I just wanted to reply to the bit about KJ's wonky random spike damages, I can't say it has anything to do with dark weather, and maybe i'll pay attention to that in the future. It just seems totally random. However, and this is just eyeballing it, it seems to me like it does the random spikes more often on undead mobs. Could be placebo, take that for what you will lol, that's just my two cents.

I have noticed though that since completing my ares body and sticking that in my KJ's, the averages on them has gone up considerably, and the numbers i get from my kj's have gotten much more consistent. Is that a factor of all the added atk from the ares body? I almost never use RR anymore cause of it even though I have 118 dex in my RR build.

[Pendulum]

On that note, I used to have the post bookmarked and now I can't find it, can someone post that chart that was showing the best-guess dDEX > Crit Rate line, I know 110+ish was where it started getting good on birds but I don't recall how steep the curve was.

the first post I could find with the graph was in http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/46517...ml#post2828010 - Pretty sure FG/Shinryuu was the author of it but not certain. And just so people don't have to flick through the locked thread for it:

http://i28.tinypic.com/241rrzs.jpg

x axis is dDEX - your dex minus mob's agi
y axis is crit%

[Darlantan]

No maths, but from a lot of using both RR and KJ with different buffs and mobs, and basicly every camp and endgame event parsed several times, I find KJ to give a higher average most times, as long as you are in high buffed situations. RR performs better when your STR, and attack level is not that much overwhelming when compared to the stats of the mob you are fighting, and the chance of crits makes it also better as you fight tougher mobs.

For example, at birds with a kabob, berserk and just a DRK roll, I'll be spamming KJ and getting noticiable higher averages than using RR. When not even an attack roll, berserk down etc, I just use RR since the crits tend to make up for the lack of buffs. If I also had double minuet, KJ would have an even greater edge.

I can post my setups for both, and can dig some parses if any of you want, but its well summed up above, I think.

[PeaceNLove]

No maths, but from a lot of using both RR and KJ with different buffs and mobs, and basicly every camp and endgame event parsed several times, I find KJ to give a higher average most times, as long as you are in high buffed situations. RR performs better when your STR, and attack level is not that much overwhelming when compared to the stats of the mob you are fighting, and the chance of crits makes it also better as you fight tougher mobs.

For example, at birds with a kabob, berserk and just a DRK roll, I'll be spamming KJ and getting noticiable higher averages than using RR. When not even an attack roll, berserk down etc, I just use RR since the crits tend to make up for the lack of buffs. If I also had double minuet, KJ would have an even greater edge.

I can post my setups for both, and can dig some parses if any of you want, but its well summed up above, I think.

This is pretty concurrent with my own results. Typical parse outcome will look like this:

http://i26.tinypic.com/121we9g.jpg

Camp was MMJSP north (Jade Sepulcher camp) with DRK/WAR rolls, no minuets eating Hedgehog pie. I pretty much use KJ 100% of the time when berserk is up, and RR when berserk is down and on most Puks (lower level, higher crit chance), and Lurkers with Aggressor down (higher acc on RR due to more DEX in the build).

Even though I'm using RR mostly without berserk attack bonus it still only averages ~100 less damage than KJ. But that just goes to show how important attack and pDIF are for KJ as opposed to RR which relies mostly on crits for damage. Heck, my highest non-2hr RR ever in merits was without berserk up, and it did more damage than my highest KJ with berserk up.