Whats Better? II

[Yugl]

Assuming x-hit isn't lost, pole grip vs sword strap on drg?

Was leaning towards sword strap, but then you have not only ws but also jump da procs to look at

Depends on the rest of your set up. If you have other DA pieces, the value of the 2% DA declines.

[Cream Soda]

my drg rating tends to be 40% melee, 10% jump, and 50% ws ussually so I'd favor pole since affects 100% of dmg vs 40%.

In that case, wouldn't it be affect 90% dmg vs 100%? Seeing as sword strap will increase ws dmg as well, via frequency.

Depends on the rest of your set up. If you have other DA pieces, the value of the 2% DA declines.

Basic shit for DA brutal rly. though only need 25 for ares legs which I'd use prolly for jump and ws.

[Wolfknight]

In that case, wouldn't it be affect 90% dmg vs 100%? Seeing as sword strap will increase ws dmg as well, via frequency.




Basic shit for DA brutal rly. though only need 25 for ares legs which I'd use prolly for jump and ws.

good point I'd still lean for pole though.

[FailureMidgard]

my drg rating tends to be 40% melee, 10% jump, and 50% ws ussually so I'd favor pole since affects 100% of dmg vs 40%.

I was waiting for a breakdown.

Sword strap is a 3.1% increase to melee, and a 3.1% increase to WS, for a total of .031*.9 = 2.79% increase in total damage.
Pole strap (with a Brutal) is a 1.9% increase to melee and jump damage, and significantly less to WS damage (I dunno exact amount, but a double attack doesn't double the damage of a WS), as well as a 1.9% increase to WS rate, for a total of .019 + .019*.5 = 2.85% increase in total damage if you assume a double attack doubles the WS damage...

If you assume a double attack does 50% of a non-DA WS's damage, that becomes .019+.019*.5*.5 = 2.38% increase in damage. In honesty, I'm pretty sure for Drakesbane, a double attack does even less than that, so I'd say Sword Strap wins, even with your distribution.

[Cream Soda]

Hmm well unless I did my math wrong, I'm now leaning towards pole myself

492
65% haste
172.2 delay

477.24
65% haste
167.034

172.2 x 100 = 17220
167.034 x X = 17720
X = 103.0927

Even w/ double march hasso and haste, only getting 103 attacks for every 100 you'd get w/o the change in delay. +2% da would average 102 total swings per 100 no? so looking at 102 vs 103 in addition to increased tp from DA jumps and increased ws dmg average.

I know DA has diminishing returns on actual damage dealt, but purely in the number of attempted swings, assuming they both start off w/ brutal and vfork, the 2% diff should still mean 2 more swings, no?

[FailureMidgard]

Hmm well unless I did my math wrong, I'm now leaning towards pole myself

492
65% haste
172.2 delay

477.24
65% haste
167.034

172.2 x 100 = 17220
167.034 x X = 17720
X = 103.0927

Even w/ double march hasso and haste, only getting 103 attacks for every 100 you'd get w/o the change in delay. +2% da would average 102 total swings per 100 no? so looking at 102 vs 103 in addition to increased tp from DA jumps and increased ws dmg average.

I know DA has diminishing returns on actual damage dealt, but purely in the number of attempted swings, assuming they both start off w/ brutal and vfork, the 2% diff should still mean 2 more swings, no?

Ok, so with Fork, we're looking at 8% DA before grip:

If you assume 17220 delay, and your numbers are correct:
Pole Grip gets 100 base swings, with with 10 additional DA swings, for 110 total swings.

Sword gets (17220/167.034)*1.08 = 111.34 swings.

[Cream Soda]

Assuming everything is right (didn't do any rounding on the delay values), its 111.34 swings vs 110 and increased ws dmg and increased jump dmg/tp (keeping in mind u actually get double tp on a DA proc jump as opposed to 1 tp on a ws dmg da proc)

edit: left off 100 swings

[FailureMidgard]

Assuming everything is right (didn't do any rounding on the delay values), its 111.34 swings vs 110 and increased ws dmg and increased jump dmg/tp (keeping in mind u actually get double tp on a DA proc jump as opposed to 1 tp on a ws dmg da proc)

edit: left off 100 swings

In 17220 delay (287 seconds), you get 287/75 = 3.83 jumps, and 1.91 High Jumps, for 5.74 Jumps. Adding (.02/1.08)*5.74 = .11 additional swings.

So now we're at 110.11 swings, vs 111.34 swings, and the only thing left is DA procs on your WS. If we use Wolfknight's numbers from earlier (50% of dmg is WS dmg):
(111.34-110.11)/110.11 = 1.23/110.11 = 1.12% more WSes for the Sword Strap.

Ok, so, the jumps are also doing .185% total damage extra, and 1.12% more WSes is .56% total extra damage, meaning Sword is winning by .375% total damage.
For Pole to catch up with DA procs on WSes, the following equation needs to be solved:

.56 = (.02/1.08)*.5*X
.56 = .009259X
X=.56/.009259 = ~60.5%
Where X is the percentage gain from a DA proc on a WS. So if you feel a DA proc will increase your WS damage by >=60%, then Pole Grip is superior. If you think it's less than that (Seems to me, common sense dictates it would be around ~25% at most on a 4hit WS), then Sword Strap should win.

[Edit: I fucked up bad on my math at first, removed it and redid it correctly, sorry.]

[Yugl]

A certain Lemon body Galka parsed it (Or he was supposed to?) and found Sword Strap to beat Pole Grip when you use Vork + Aurum body.

[Tsuko_Asura]

That's a pretty abysmal thing to parse. There are so many variables that could skew a test regarding things so difficult to discern.

[Yugl]

I was only pointing out that a parse agrees with the math in order to avoid such statements.

[Killkenny]

Trying to parse the difference between pole grip and sword strap on any job is retarded, the difference will be unquantifiable when you throw in the countless variables.

As failure said sword strap pretty much always wins on any setup where it doesn't change the x-hit build, this is assuming you are continueously fighting and you can always engage your next target immediately.

[Gunslinger]

Someone rang the lemon yellow galka bell! I originally posted this question when Aurum came out and I realized with my v-fork I could maintain a 6-hit with a 3% delay reduction.

I'm at work, but yes, Sword Strap came ahead in my limited parsing. Pretty much what people are saying though, I took the testing with a grain of salt.

Basically sword is always going to win because you're not only getting better melee damage, but also increased weapon skill frequency. If you’re going on melee damage alone it’s a wash, but being able to WS more frequently will put sword ahead every time.

The real kicker (besides needing 2 pretty difficult-to-obtain pieces) is that you have to assume that Aurum is the best thing to jump in and the best thing to WS in. If you remove Aurum for melee jumps or WS's you're going to remove your 'true 6-hit'. If you're using a pole strap, you can swap out the body and still maintain a 6-hit with the extra TP you get from your other melee attacks on aurum (you have a ‘buffer’).

Since the parsing is so close I think you can really sway this whole thing either way.

I know I get better Jump numbers using Zahaks (higher vitality and crits, although this is highly dependent on attack), and I prefer Zahaks for WS's in high-attack situations too. But if I use Zahaks I negate the benefits of the pole/valk/aurum build with each jump.

Basically, use whichever you want, the difference is going to be small. Aurum/Sword/Valk is sweet if you're happy jumping / WSing in Aurum (which I do on /sam, just to feel special , and 99% of the time it SHOULD be better), but if you want to use other equipment in swaps use pole. You really have to stick to it if you plan on using it.

[Syrala]

On greater colibri, WAR75

Great Axe vs. Maneater/Joyeuse

I have 8/8 axe merits and 8/8 sword merits. I have a taru friend who has full merits on axe/sword, and says he has continually parsed himself to do more damage with axe/sword, but it seems like i do more damage with great axe.

Here is my sword/axe TP build:
Maneater/Joyeuse
Fire Bomblet
Walahra Turban
Peacock Charm
Brutal Earring/Suppanomimi
Hauberk
Dusk Gloves
Sniper's Ringx2
Cerberus Mantle
Swift Belt
Byakko's haidate
Dusk Ledelsens

I spam crab sushi on birds, and use kabobs on great axe. My TP build for gaxe is the same, minus suppa and plus assault earring.

Any thoughts on gear changes, or experiences with sword/axe vs. great axe on birds?

Thanks.

[Darlantan]

G. Axe /sam on colibries destroys Axe/Joyeuse, just make sure you have a Rajas, etc, to maintain a 6-hit build. /nin the difference is not as big, but G. Axe still beats the other combination by a good margin.

Assuming you are wielding a Perdu Voulge, you should work on getting Aurum Sabatons and a Haub+1 to almost cap acc even with aggressor down, then get a Cuch. Mantle and go Rajas/Blitz. Other improvements are just hard to obtain pieces like Ebody which would let you go for Dusk Ledelsens+1 and blitz as long as you have Cuch., Perdu, and so on.

In my experiences and dozens of parses, there is no competition between G. Axe and Maneater/Joyeuse even in a camp with weak mobs which are also weak to piercing (birds).

[Bregor]

Great Axe vs. Maneater/Joyeuse

I have 8/8 axe merits and 8/8 sword merits

Would you consider moving your merits around? 8/8 great axe, Perdu Voulge and /SAM are the stuff dreams are made of at birds. Even when I /NIN for non-merit situations, I stick with Perdu. Joyeuse only gets work in SE Apollyon these days.

[Syrala]

G. Axe /sam on colibries destroys Axe/Joyeuse, just make sure you have a Rajas, etc, to maintain a 6-hit build. /nin the difference is not as big, but G. Axe still beats the other combination by a good margin.

Assuming you are wielding a Perdu Voulge, you should work on getting Aurum Sabatons and a Haub+1 to almost cap acc even with aggressor down, then get a Cuch. Mantle and go Rajas/Blitz. Other improvements are just hard to obtain pieces like Ebody which would let you go for Dusk Ledelsens+1 and blitz as long as you have Cuch., Perdu, and so on.

In my experiences and dozens of parses, there is no competition between G. Axe and Maneater/Joyeuse even in a camp with weak mobs which are also weak to piercing (birds).

Even with full sword/axe merits, and no GA merits? Should i swap out my axe/sword merits for GA merits and fulltime GA?

Also, King's Justice vs. Raging Rush.. which is better? In my experience so far, raging rush has been noticeably better than KJ. For king's justice, should I be using PCC or breeze gorget?

Thanks again~

[Callisto]

Even with full sword/axe merits, and no GA merits? Should i swap out my axe/sword merits for GA merits and fulltime GA?

Sword is useful for other jobs, I'd keep those, though I'd swap your 8 Axe for 8 GAxe. Meritted GAxe will win, end of story.

Also, King's Justice vs. Raging Rush.. which is better? In my experience so far, raging rush has been noticeably better than KJ. For king's justice, should I be using PCC or breeze gorget?

Thanks again~

KJ is basically RR without the crits and slightly higher mods, RR will generally win if you get at least one crit. Raging Rush unless someone in front of you does a Kasha/Deto/Insurgency then I'd go for the Light with KJ, if using Mighty Strikes use KJ. Breeze Gorget for KJ.

[Syrala]

Ok, final question about war (for now :D).

What does it take to get a 6-hit build on war/sam? Just rajas?

[Darlantan]

Yes, most of the old warriors and I had merits on axe/sword, berserk/aggressor, and most of us changed them when we noticed G. Axe was consistently and constantly beating Maneater/Joyeuse, even with the merits favoring those. I would use Great Axe in 99% of the situations. Polearm is awesome at birds if you are highly buffed, but so is G. Axe. Polearm or Joytoy for SE as Bregor said, and if you had a Ridill I guess it has a use vs really weak mobs such as Nyzul, but even then.

Merits wise, if you are hardcore about warrior you would want to change them to 8/8 Great Axe, and 5/5 Berserk 5/5 Double Attack, optimally.

In my experiences, KJ seems to average higher damage than RR in high buffed situations, basicly, everytime your attack, STR etc clearly wins the formulas vs the mob you are fighting. This is, merit party mobs, nyzul, einherjar, zergs... I only use RR when I am fighting a really tough mobs where the chance of crits and the innate higher acc (due to stacking DEX instead of STR) is doing far more. I have played with nearly caped crit. builds on birds and RR and still slightly outparse those numbers with KJ, but thats just my experiences and many others say otherwise, many others agree.

For KJ, Soil or Breeze Gorget.