Whats Better? II

[Darlantan]

From 0 to 100 tp, +7 stp. Rajas + Brutal + Chiv. Chain/AmnesiaRing/any other +1stp piece.

As long as you get 1 tp return from ws or get hit once, you'll have a 6-hit with just Brutal and Rajas, but Feather Tickles do hurt. A Full ws with a real 6-hit is making it to 100 tp in 5 hits, as well.

[Callisto]

Ok, final question about war (for now :D).

What does it take to get a 6-hit build on war/sam? Just rajas?

It takes +7 from gear using a 504 delay GAxe, Rajas(or Askar Body)/Brutal plus Ecphoria Ring, White Tathlum, or Chiv Chain will do it, or Aurum Body.

[Syrala]

It takes +7 from gear using a 504 delay GAxe, Rajas(or Askar Body)/Brutal plus Ecphoria Ring, White Tathlum, or Chiv Chain will do it, or Aurum Body.

Sigh.. I swapped rajas for tamas when i got rdm&blm to 75. Assuming I re-get rajas..

Is switching to chiv. chain to get +7stp w/ brutal+rajas better than using PCC? Should I use the ecphoria over one of my acc rings? Finally, is cerberus mantle an ok sub for foragers? I can't see merit in buying/having both.

Thanks~

[Callisto]

Sigh.. I swapped rajas for tamas when i got rdm&blm to 75. Assuming I re-get rajas..

Is switching to chiv. chain to get +7stp w/ brutal+rajas better than using PCC? Should I use the ecphoria over one of my acc rings? Finally, is cerberus mantle an ok sub for foragers? I can't see merit in buying/having both.

Thanks~

Ecphoria instead of Sniper's will be less of a hit than Chiv instead of PCC. If you go ahead and do GAxe merits like suggested you are going to end up pretty much near capped Acc on birds even without Crab Sushi, with Aggressor up you should be over the cap, you can probably get away with Askar body(especially while Agg is up).

And Cerb Mantle is fine, though Cuch is probably ideal, especially if you are going to use Askar for the 6-hit.

[Darlantan]

Keep PCC for any mobs that cant take your tp to 0. For birds, which can do it, depends if you are basicly tanking all the mobs, etc. In most of my parties mobs are constantly going after me, thus, eating a whole lot of Feather Tickles, but also most likely getting a hit on the run to 100 tp, so very often I just go with PCC/Rajas/Brutal and purposely let them hit me once if I do get Feather Tickled. Going with another piece of +1stp would safe you the trouble but in the neck piece would mean around 2+ % hit rate, in the rings, less if your option was a normal acc +5 ring, but a more significant loss if it was a Blitz or Acc+7 ring.

I have been wearing Cerberus for a long time since I use it for PLD and for WAR vokes and DD tanking, and couldnt get myself to have both capes. Ideally you should have both, and some will find it gimp to tp on Cerberus no matter how you say you use Cerby for other things and havent got the inventory space/money to have both. So its up to you but, if you want my opinion, I would stick to Cerby and work hard on getting a Cuch. Mantle which will be better than Forager's most of the time with the proper changes in the other slots.

[noodles355]

As failure said sword strap pretty much always wins on any setup where it doesn't change the x-hit build, this is assuming you are continueously fighting and you can always engage your next target immediately.

Is delay carried over when you auto-target the next mob? I know this is only anecdotal, but I sware if I get the killshot on a mob, my next round is not based on my delay, but is as instant as engaging a mob for the first time.
Plus, at either colibri, you will be killing faster than repops so you wont be able to auto-engage anyway.

I have no idea if delay is carried over. It would be easy to test (Kill mob with 999 dly relic, have next mob lined up), but if it's not and your delay resets then that could change a lot of thinking. I've never really seen this topic touched on, and am curious.

On an unrelated point: Jump (50% Vit mod 1Hit 1.00 WS apparantly?) 4VIT or 7STR (Heca Cap or Askar) I'm assuming Heca but just want to make sure.

[noodles355]

I'm not really comparing to Red Curry. If you want to go blow 60k on food, be my guest, but sure, when you get -that- much attack, it's a bit different.

Hydra Kofte 30k.

Also if you're willing to blow millions on Cerb+1 over Foragers for 1str but aren't on spending 20-70k more on 3hr food then there's something up.

Edit: Triple post ftw. should really start editing posts..

[Callisto]

For WAR Polearms, is it basically Engetsuo or , or is there anything else worth using?

[Drace]

Gondo is pretty decent

(Same base dmg and delay, trading 2 acc, 1 stp for 6% crits)

[Darlantan]

Leviathan's Couse (good luck ; ; ), Engetsuto or unlocked Gondo.

Engetsuto and Gondo are fairly similar, while Levi's should be a little better than the others, I think.

[FailureMidgard]

Is delay carried over when you auto-target the next mob? I know this is only anecdotal, but I sware if I get the killshot on a mob, my next round is not based on my delay, but is as instant as engaging a mob for the first time.
Plus, at either colibri, you will be killing faster than repops so you wont be able to auto-engage anyway.

I have no idea if delay is carried over. It would be easy to test (Kill mob with 999 dly relic, have next mob lined up), but if it's not and your delay resets then that could change a lot of thinking. I've never really seen this topic touched on, and am curious.

On an unrelated point: Jump (50% Vit mod 1Hit 1.00 WS apparantly?) 4VIT or 7STR (Heca Cap or Askar) I'm assuming Heca but just want to make sure.

Are you a monk? Delay is reset if you're using a dual wield job and kill it with the first swing, as far as I can tell (or at the very least, you don't have to wait for a full delay before you can swing again). For 2handers, it seems to me delay is not reset, and you have to wait still. Furthermore, the time it takes to reengage a mob once you kill one and disengage is based on your delay (perhaps even equal to your delay?). This is very easy to see when you're weakened and still fighting.

[Callisto]

Anectdotally I can agree that I swear I've seen myself swing faster than my normal delay with autotarget on with a 2-hander, if not at the very least it was definitely faster than normal re-engaging, but I definitely haven't purposely watched it, much less tested it.

[Darlantan]

I would also say delay is reset even for 2 Handers :3.

[liggy 0]

The real kicker (besides needing 2 pretty difficult-to-obtain pieces) is that you have to assume that Aurum is the best thing to jump in and the best thing to WS in. If you remove Aurum for melee jumps or WS's you're going to remove your 'true 6-hit'. If you're using a pole strap, you can swap out the body and still maintain a 6-hit with the extra TP you get from your other melee attacks on aurum (you have a ‘buffer’).

fudged it with askar , had to swap in white/black tathlum

[FailureMidgard]

Well, went out and tested real quick, it's definitely faster than full delay, but it's definitely not instant either. It seems about the same delay as swinging at a mob for the first time, no faster.

In any case, that doesn't change the math 1 bit, as once you subtract that out, you also have to subtract out the fact that DA can't proc on a killshot on a mob (WS or melee), which was also ignored. That math on both straps was incorrectly assuming it was 1 enemy with a large HP pool.

[Yugl]

Someone rang the lemon yellow galka bell! I originally posted this question when Aurum came out and I realized with my v-fork I could maintain a 6-hit with a 3% delay reduction.

I'm at work, but yes, Sword Strap came ahead in my limited parsing. Pretty much what people are saying though, I took the testing with a grain of salt.

Basically sword is always going to win because you're not only getting better melee damage, but also increased weapon skill frequency. If you’re going on melee damage alone it’s a wash, but being able to WS more frequently will put sword ahead every time.

The real kicker (besides needing 2 pretty difficult-to-obtain pieces) is that you have to assume that Aurum is the best thing to jump in and the best thing to WS in. If you remove Aurum for melee jumps or WS's you're going to remove your 'true 6-hit'. If you're using a pole strap, you can swap out the body and still maintain a 6-hit with the extra TP you get from your other melee attacks on aurum (you have a ‘buffer’).

Since the parsing is so close I think you can really sway this whole thing either way.

I know I get better Jump numbers using Zahaks (higher vitality and crits, although this is highly dependent on attack), and I prefer Zahaks for WS's in high-attack situations too. But if I use Zahaks I negate the benefits of the pole/valk/aurum build with each jump.

Basically, use whichever you want, the difference is going to be small. Aurum/Sword/Valk is sweet if you're happy jumping / WSing in Aurum (which I do on /sam, just to feel special , and 99% of the time it SHOULD be better), but if you want to use other equipment in swaps use pole. You really have to stick to it if you plan on using it.

Actually this Crits on Jump issue brings up a good point. I was looking at the following set up for Jumps (For PC players onry; if I tried this, I risk hitting the mob before changing back to TP gear on PS3):

FFXIGEAR.com

If you do have a "Buffer" (Unsure if this is actually the case), then it's possible to change Aurum for Zahaks. That gives:

FFXIGEAR.com

Just looking at Colibri, this should cap your ACC and your Crit % right?

[Gunslinger]

That math on both straps was incorrectly assuming it was 1 enemy with a large HP pool.

That's really the thing with all DoT math that gets thrown around, most of it assumes you're fighting uninterrupted and not taking that second to engage, switch targets, etc. I've seen people talk about not using dusk because it may slow them between mobs, but there's really no practical way to measure it. Most of the time the math doesn't really play out in the game, but it's at least a good indicator in the majority of situations. After awhile I really just say 'fuck it' and just wear what I'm going to wear, lol.

If you do have a "Buffer" (Unsure if this is actually the case), then it's possible to change Aurum for Zahaks.

Exactly. With a sword strap you end up with 100.2 TP in 6 hits, pretty much as close as you can get. With a pole strap you get 104.4 in the same gear. If you do two jumps in zahaks with your other melee hits in aurum, you end up with 102.7 TP, more than enough room to swap out that sTP for 2 hits. That said, if you wanted to you could still swap gear and rely on extra hits from drakes to fill it, but I'm personally against relying on that.

Also, I believe that would cap you for crits. The 7% from merits/gear definitely helps that average too (w/ Zahaks). I jump in similar gear when I'm using pole and it's not uncommon to see 400-500+ jumps in merits frequently. Only difference is I use my STR ring, Cerb back (I used to mainly tank... still can't justify 2 mantles even though I can more than afford it lol), and Aurum legs Jump, AF2+1 high jump. I never see N Legs Q_Q. You probably don't need the acc from Culth mantle... unless your attack is extremely high I think an att piece on jump may be better, unless you want to acc overkill to ensure you get the TP rather than focusing on jump damage. That said, it's certainly not a bad choice! It's certainly the best looking cape, which everyone should know plays a big part in what I wear.


VVVV Totally agree. 60% of the time it works everytime But you're right, I didn't even think about the killshot in my original math. Sword strap wins again (at least conceptually!)

[FailureMidgard]

That's really the thing with all DoT math that gets thrown around, most of it assumes you're fighting uninterrupted and not taking that second to engage, switch targets, etc. I've seen people talk about not using dusk because it may slow them between mobs, but there's really no practical way to measure it. Most of the time the math doesn't really play out in the game, but it's at least a good indicator in the majority of situations. After awhile I really just say 'fuck it' and just wear what I'm going to wear, lol.

Sure, but, it's still mostly accurate, as all stats suffer from target switching. Attack still suffers, because a lot of times you are overkilling a mob, and overkilling it by 60 instead of 30 does nothing for you (assuming you did like +~5-6 dmg per swing for every swing). But in the end, most things will still fall very close in the target-switching scenario to where they would be in a single fight scenario. Granted, things like dusk aren't too quantifiable, but when you compare attack to haste to DA, all 3 can get ruined because of a target-switch, and all 3 can also increase your kill speed by anywhere from 1 second to 1 full swing. What's important is the average of what it does per fight, which will follow the math being done.

[Yugl]

That's really the thing with all DoT math that gets thrown around, most of it assumes you're fighting uninterrupted and not taking that second to engage, switch targets, etc. I've seen people talk about not using dusk because it may slow them between mobs, but there's really no practical way to measure it. Most of the time the math doesn't really play out in the game, but it's at least a good indicator in the majority of situations. After awhile I really just say 'fuck it' and just wear what I'm going to wear, lol.



Exactly. With a sword strap you end up with 100.2 TP in 6 hits, pretty much as close as you can get. With a pole strap you get 104.4 in the same gear. If you do two jumps in zahaks with your other melee hits in aurum, you end up with 102.7 TP, more than enough room to swap out that sTP for 2 hits. That said, if you wanted to you could still swap gear and rely on extra hits from drakes to fill it, but I'm personally against relying on that.

Also, I believe that would cap you for crits. The 7% from merits/gear definitely helps that average too (w/ Zahaks). I jump in similar gear when I'm using pole and it's not uncommon to see 400-500+ jumps in merits frequently. Only difference is I use my STR ring, Cerb back (I used to mainly tank... still can't justify 2 mantles even though I can more than afford it lol), and Aurum legs Jump, AF2+1 high jump. I never see N Legs Q_Q. You probably don't need the acc from Culth mantle... unless your attack is extremely high I think an att piece on jump may be better, unless you want to acc overkill to ensure you get the TP rather than focusing on jump damage. That said, it's certainly not a bad choice! It's certainly the best looking cape, which everyone should know plays a big part in what I wear.


VVVV Totally agree. 60% of the time it works everytime But you're right, I didn't even think about the killshot in my original math. Sword strap wins again (at least conceptually!)

Well looking at the ACC total, with merits, you're barely hitting the cap on Colibri. Also, I used Cuchulains for the DEX since it's an item you would want to have anyways.

[Killkenny]

Well, went out and tested real quick, it's definitely faster than full delay, but it's definitely not instant either. It seems about the same delay as swinging at a mob for the first time, no faster.

In any case, that doesn't change the math 1 bit, as once you subtract that out, you also have to subtract out the fact that DA can't proc on a killshot on a mob (WS or melee), which was also ignored. That math on both straps was incorrectly assuming it was 1 enemy with a large HP pool.

As has already been said you will often be waiting for the next mob to get to you (in a good party this happens often) so x% of the time it will negate the cut in delay on first hit (which goes back to the point about the maths assuming you are fighting 1 target with large hp).

If the sword strap doesn't actually net you an extra hit against a target with roughly 4k hp (very likely) and you aren't the killer of the target (again assuming 2-3 equally geared DDs this is going to happen often) then you won't kill the target any faster with sword strap but you could've still DA'd.

This is all ofcourse hypothetical but it does illustrate that the maths used so far doesn't paint an accurate picture of merit parties, limbus non-boss zones, einherjar, etc.