Whats Better? II

[FailureMidgard]

As has already been said you will often be waiting for the next mob to get to you (in a good party this happens often) so x% of the time it will negate the cut in delay on first hit (which goes back to the point about the maths assuming you are fighting 1 target with large hp).

If the sword strap doesn't actually net you an extra hit against a target with roughly 4k hp (very likely) and you aren't the killer of the target (again assuming 2-3 equally geared DDs this is going to happen often) then you won't kill the target any faster with sword strap but you could've still DA'd.

This is all ofcourse hypothetical but it does illustrate that the maths used so far doesn't paint an accurate picture of merit parties, limbus non-boss zones, einherjar, etc.

If you are waiting for the mob to get to you, and this is your logic, then there is a ceiling to your gear helping. This doesn't apply to only haste effects. If you DA even on the first swing, and that ends up saving a full swing, but the bard/etc can't pull fast enough, so you end up waiting once the mob is dead, what did that DA do for you? absolutely nothing. What does some extra attack do for you? absolutely nothing.
2% DA is not going to affect your kill time on most mobs. In fact, on most mobs it won't even proc due to that. And when it does, it can still proc on the killing blow, and not give you your DA at all.
Also, in all of those events, the enemy may have readied a WS right as you killed it, and without said dmg increase, the attack would have gotten off (let's say feather tickle), which makes you kill the next mob that much slower.

There are 2 ways to look at this. Option 1 is the puller can't pull fast enough - no stats matter past killing stuff at the puller's speed. Solution: new puller.
Option 2 is that there is a X second delay between killing 1 mob and moving to the next. If you have 3 DD, and each one gets 1/3rd the KBs, doing it 3% faster, so you can start the X second delay before reengaging that much sooner will add up as much in the long run as the math implies that it will.

Your argument negates any and every stat. Any stat can "overkill", or be useless due to a mob dying.

[Killkenny]

I never implied every time there won't be a target immediately ready to engage, just that it will happen often, no matter what.

As for overkill and negating every stat its not true, if you double attack on that 2% and then immediately after another DD kills the target with a WS (pretty much every time a WS kills a target it is overkill to some extent) you will have that extra tp for your next fight. The point about tp use could again be argued both ways.

I also never said that pole was better or that sword was better, just that mathematically they are extremely close but so many variables could be argued either way that there is no real answer.

[Yugl]

I never implied every time there won't be a target immediately ready to engage, just that it will happen often, no matter what.

As for overkill and negating every stat its not true, if you double attack on that 2% and then immediately after another DD kills the target with a WS (pretty much every time a WS kills a target it is overkill to some extent) you will have that extra tp for your next fight. The point about tp use could again be argued both ways.

I also never said that pole was better or that sword was better, just that mathematically they are extremely close but so many variables could be argued either way that there is no real answer.

He never said you're you implying that auto-target will never happen. He said that if you don't auto-target (Or have a target to attack), the effect of killing faster is diminished since you're standing around *not* gaining XP. It's similar to "Wait till JP Midnight" missions work. Does it matter if you finish it an hour before JP midnight, does it matter that someone else finished it five minutes after you? Neither of you can continue until JP midnight, so what's the point in caring about differences in mission completion speed? Similar to this situation, it doesn't matter if the Sword Strap person kills faster than the Pole Grip person if they *both* wait the same amount of time to start the next mob.

You do have a point about the extra TP from DA. However, I could also suggest that killing slower (Since you're using Pole grip) allows the mob to use another TP move. If that move is feather tickle, it negates the effect of that extra TP. If you DA on a WS, you don't benefit from TP gain. If you DA on a hit that would have put you at 100% TP anyways, you don't benefit from TP gain. If you DA on a hit that kills the mob you don't gain TP or damage. There are lots of factors that comparison skewed. However, I believe his math earlier favored DA more since it placed DA in the best possible scenario. That should off-set the fact that you don't always have a mob to engage.

[FailureMidgard]

I never implied every time there won't be a target immediately ready to engage, just that it will happen often, no matter what.

As for overkill and negating every stat its not true, if you double attack on that 2% and then immediately after another DD kills the target with a WS (pretty much every time a WS kills a target it is overkill to some extent) you will have that extra tp for your next fight. The point about tp use could again be argued both ways.

I also never said that pole was better or that sword was better, just that mathematically they are extremely close but so many variables could be argued either way that there is no real answer.

You can also have more TP left over based on your -3% delay, because it has a -chance- to give you an extra swing every mob (much like 2% DA), whereas you swung right before person B WSed and killed it, so now you have 1 more swing worth of TP, whereas you wouldn't have if you swung just a fraction of a second later.

[Killkenny]

You can also have more TP left over based on your -3% delay, because it has a -chance- to give you an extra swing every mob (much like 2% DA), whereas you swung right before person B WSed and killed it, so now you have 1 more swing worth of TP, whereas you wouldn't have if you swung just a fraction of a second later.

That is entirely my point, if you can figure out how often each is going to occur then it might mean something, the difference might be very small but the difference is already very small between the 2 grips.

[FailureMidgard]

That is entirely my point, if you can figure out how often each is going to occur then it might mean something, the difference might be very small but the difference is already very small between the 2 grips.

All the math I did do assuming 1 HP bar should be the exact same, but in "chance to X" if you look at killing blows and moving between mobs....

[Arximiro]

For Ninja tp gain: Snipers+1 x 2 or Snipers+1/Rajas?

I would assume dual Snipers, but then again the store tp puts me at 10+tp on all swing rounds with Senj/Perdu thanks to Usu feet. Then there is the 5Str and Dex.

[Raen Ryong]

Basically 4.5acc vs 5str/5dex/5stp.

5str on NIN is fSTR +1.25, which is roughly 3.125%~ DoT on average (using 40 BD). 5dex is an unquantifiable increase in crit hit rate.

4.5acc is ~2.25/90 (since you'll probably be eating sushi on nin) = 2.5% DoT/WS frequency. Since your Store TP is also providing WS frequency, Rajas will win.

Note that fSTR + 1.25 doesn't literally mean +1.25 but is an average; it will be +1 75% of the time and +2 25% of the time.

If your BD is higher (higher fSTR etc) then Rajas becomes slightly worse for DoT, and if your accuracy is lower than 90%, Sniper+1 becomes progressively better. It won't be easy for 7acc to beat Rajas on NIN though (note that 5acc has little to NO chance of beating Rajas -- the 2x acc ring thing over Rajas/acc for THF and NIN needs to end <_<).

[Arximiro]

So basically E-peen VS Gil in pocket. I'd say on things like Mamool JA my Acc on nin is around 90% thanks to flash and warm-up. With Usu feet, Cuch mantle, and capped Katana merits, dual snipers+1 probably are overkill though.

http://i25.tinypic.com/2j0frxe.jpg

Edit: This would be my TP gear with dual snipers+1 if it helps answer the question any.
5/5Str
4/4Crit
8/8Katana merits

[Raen Ryong]

Pretty much! If you can give your tp/hit before and after Rajas, can give you the WS frequency increase too.

EDIT: If it reduces it by even one hit it'll produce more frequency than Sniper+1 over time.

[Arximiro]

What if I was to try a meat build and use Hauby+1 over af+1 body? Gonna test some swings to see how tp return is rq.

[Deimos]

Hmm, interesting. So how does an acc ring compare to Rajas for MNK?

[noodles355]

There are 2 ways to look at this. Option 1 is the puller can't pull fast enough - no stats matter past killing stuff at the puller's speed. Solution: new puller.

Doesn't matter how great the puller is. If there's no mob up, there's no mob up. Not puller's fault.

[FailureMidgard]

Doesn't matter how great the puller is. If there's no mob up, there's no mob up. Not puller's fault.

"no bird up" doesn't translate to "no mob up". If there's no birds up, there should be a wivre slept in my face ready for me to switch to. The only camp where you can hit no mobs up is the mamool above birds.

Finally, I said 2 options for a reason, because that situation could arise FOR 1 OF 2 REASONS. If there's no mobs up, it's clearly the other reason.

[Midnightjade]

"no bird up" doesn't translate to "no mob up". If there's no birds up, there should be a wivre slept in my face ready for me to switch to. The only camp where you can hit no mobs up is the mamool above birds.

Finally, I said 2 options for a reason, because that situation could arise FOR 1 OF 2 REASONS. If there's no mobs up, it's clearly the other reason.

For fixed nonroaming party, maybe we can assume there are a finite number of mobs M within radius R of the party and they repop at rate P. Then if party kill speed > P, M depletes until it reaches zero ie no mobs are up within optimum pulling range. At that point puller either needs to go outside R (long pull, may break chain) or wait for next pop (= kill delay and may also break chain).

Isn't that how it works? Suggests that in that situation switch to roaming party is optimal (which is how my best meripos have usually gone although it's been a while). So overall party strategy and behavior more important than having a puller that can fly. Rate of repops eventually becomes limiting and forces switch to roaming strategy if your party is very strong.

Anyhow, if that's wrong then let me know. Thanks.

[Syrala]

More WAR what's better:

I'm up next for ridill (or close to) in my current LS, and so I was wondering if a ridillwar with 8/8 axe/sword will do better in most situations that war/sam.

Secondly, is getting a martial bhuj and using steel cyclone more advantageous than using perdu and RR/KJ?

Thanks~

[isladar]

More WAR what's better:

I'm up next for ridill (or close to) in my current LS, and so I was wondering if a ridillwar with 8/8 axe/sword will do better in most situations that war/sam.

In merit, maybe. Even then not really.

Secondly, is getting a martial bhuj and using steel cyclone more advantageous than using perdu and RR/KJ?

Thanks~

If you merit the thinger what gives TP with Warcry, you could potentially hit a 300% SC with only 150% TP with Martial Bhuj. Only when Warcry is up though.

As much as I loved my martial, Perdu and gear for RR and KJ will see you through pretty much every situation without issue. Perdu is also going to be your go-to for 300% save up on Steel Cyclone, as well.

[Marcicus]

More WAR what's better:

I'm up next for ridill (or close to) in my current LS, and so I was wondering if a ridillwar with 8/8 axe/sword will do better in most situations that war/sam.

Secondly, is getting a martial bhuj and using steel cyclone more advantageous than using perdu and RR/KJ?

Thanks~

No and no (unless you want that shit for ballista, then Martial Bhuj is the fuckyeahyoudie weapon). Great Axe is the best fucking weapon type in this game. Learn it, live it, love it.

[Raen Ryong]

What if I was to try a meat build and use Hauby+1 over af+1 body? Gonna test some swings to see how tp return is rq.

If your accuracy is at 80% which is probably the very lowest you'll ever try for a meat build for and even then that's really low, 2.25% hitrate would give you 2.25/80 = 2.81% DoT/WS frequency. Let's assume you have a base damage of 43 due to the meat, hauby+1 and stuff. 1.25/43 = 2.91% DoT, so Rajas will still produce more DoT. If it is even dropping you one hit to 100% TP, the WS frequency will overtake too so Rajas will do better over time.

Hmm, interesting. So how does an acc ring compare to Rajas for MNK?

Assuming fSTR is not capped, Rajas should outdo a 7acc assuming it drops your "x hit" build by 1 hit at least.

EDIT: Also note that I am not including attack and possible critical hit increases from using Rajas, which make it even better.

[Cream Soda]

Personally as far as mnk goes, I have a Rajas macro. IN those situations where I come to 89 tp (you all mnks know this dreaded number), I simply swap to rajas for that next attack round and get 11 tp for it.