Optimum Merit Set Up

[Khamsin]

People who show up to my merit parties /NIN find themselves leaving very, very quickly, obviously barring top-notch Thieves.

I'm sure as he'll not going to single-wield ridill. What else would I sub? I parse pretty well despite my sub choice.

[Callisto]

I don't think melees eating Dia 3 are going to be in any more danger than ones eating Dia 2 from a WHM, I don't think that has any bearing at all.

[Spider-Dan]

You use Dia without shadows and your melee magically never die? Your melee are /NIN to block reflects or /SAM to do more damage, not both.

And this is why Convert matters. Anyone who thinks MP is not an issue isn't trying hard enough.

10-12 MP/tick refresh? Then your COR is using Evoker's instead of continuing to DD. Stop.
Reflected Dia3s are a problem? Then you don't have enough MP to deal with it.
Melee not using Seigan enough? Ditto.

At birds, WHM/SCH is adequate; effective, even. RDM is still superior.

[donnie]

1) WHM/NIN is not WHM/SCH
2) Erase recast has never been a factor on wivres, in my experience

I'm not saying that WHM/SCH won't work. I'm saying that there is no reason to choose WHM/SCH over RDM, while there ARE reasons to choose RDM over WHM/SCH. Therefore, in a discussion of "optimum merit set-up," RDM is selected.

i hate to derail the topic but this is just a general mis-conception that whm/sch cant do well or better as rdm, I'v played both and I can safely say imo whm/sch is better then rdm for those reasons:

1- Gravity VS auspice: would u choose -5% evasion on the monster or increase in accuracy for the DDers ?

2- Refresh VS regen III: although composure+ refresh would generate more MP, but the fact is regen III works wonder and save you alot of MP in keeping the PT alive. ( i am considering the fact that whm is receiving ballad+evoker)

3- Convert VS sublim: although convert generate 900-1000 MP every 9.1-10min , sub is not 200 worth of MP, considering the difference in timers , I would put sublim in about 700mp every 10min which is although less then convert but you wont need to cure your self.

4- unique spells: the fact you protectra V every 30min, Esuna which is AOE erase, raise III for dead members and in some cases Cura.

on the RDM side though you get:

1- Dia III, this is a major upside for having rdm, but I still believe it wont make enough difference to choose rdm over a GOOD whm.

2- access to T3 nukes which helps Killing monster in situations where DD fails, but on the other hand since its rarely used, whm holy might do better damage with less MP used.

3- access to sleep 1 , 2. while WHMs have only repose.

so in the end if you look at those fact above, I really dont see why community choose rdm over whm, it should be the other way around.

[Shin Volcano]

Esuna is not better than Dia3.

And anyone who is saying "I never need to convert" better be partying with fulltime Hasso/zerk/Counterstance DDs. If the word "shadow" is coming out of your mouth, you just disqualified yourself.

Dia 3 does not remove it self when it gets reflected back on you, i'm not sure why you are even comparing a dot to a an aoe erase.

dia 3 is not needed to kill, dia 2 can and will perform close results, as the mobs no matter which tier is on will still die in a very fast manner. i'm also not sure why RDM is still the only "optimal" choice in this selection if dia 3 is the only reason you are claming, not to mention as i stated before...every RDM dosn't have dia 3..Phalanx would have been a much better comparasion.

But alas, it is also just a luxery and not needed, if somone take an unlucky pecking flurry or rushing stab to the face i sure as hell would rather Penury cure V them then 2 cure IVs using more MP, especialy with that possible reflected dia 3 on them.

[Ultimagi]

1- Gravity VS auspice: would u choose -5% evasion on the monster or increase in accuracy for the DDers ?

Auspice only increases accuracy for the White Mage casting it.

[Loziel]

Drg/Sam
Drg/Sam
War/Sam (voke whore and fighters roll boost)
Cor
Rdm
Brd

This in my opinion is optimal, if your puller knows what they are doing you can alternate Angons on Wivre and clear absolutely every bird and wivre in reach with just enough pops to keep it going

On a different note:

Really how much attack difference is there between

Decked 2h Drg eating Subs with naturally capped acc
Decked Sam Capping Acc with Sushi and using Zerk?

I would imagine its going to be a small margin to not make much of a difference so that goes out of the window. Drakesbanes geared to smash the crit tier on birds with the above setup really are something to be seen.

[Pataki]

im sure people are gonna talk shit or think im lying, but bet meritpo i was ever in was ninx3, brdx2, whm, 32k/hr mamool ja SP. people tend to neglect nin and mnk dot, it beats any DD job imo

[Spider-Dan]

Dia 3 does not remove it self when it gets reflected back on you, i'm not sure why you are even comparing a dot to a an aoe erase.

To clarify: Esuna+Dia2 is not better than Dia3+Erases.

dia 3 is not needed to kill, dia 2 can and will perform close results, as the mobs no matter which tier is on will still die in a very fast manner.

Is this thread about "optimal merit set up" or just "really good merit set up"?

[Drace]

There are dozens of nice set ups that will net you 25-30k an hour - the point of this thread is to discuss Optimum Merit Set Ups. While some job combinations will be within an extremely small margin of each other, that extra 1-2% efficiency is what this is about.

Edit: Meh beaten to it, but again, title stresses Optimum

[Callisto]

An aside, the overall civility of this discussion has been pleasant, but yeah, I do think unless there were 3 Kikokus flying around I'm going to have to call POIDH on the NINx3 32k/hr without anni bands and/or COR roll.

[FailureMidgard]

I'm not personally sure what a 'strong' SAM polearm build looks like compared to a DRG TP build, but as often as birds largely resist SC damage I can't really compare Sekka vs. other tools since having one Rana without Hagun buff and a mostly resisted darkness may end up as less than just 2 plain Gekkos.

As far as Berserk that's definitely a large chunk, though it's only 60% of the time and DRG should naturally have at least 100 Attack up on a SAM from the skill difference/Aurum or Askar body, and mithkabobs(if we're giving the SAM Crab Sushi spam I think we can assume this for the DRG).

Edit: Ignore the Sekka comment, my brain isn't working and I forgot we're talking Polearm.

The sam WSes ~40% more often, with +19% dmg per WS. The dragoon does have roughly 85 attack on the sam, but the sam actually has an easier time with accuracy than the dragoon (sushi caps accuracy, and lets you drop accuracy everywhere that makes sense on gear...for the dragoon to properly gear for max haste [to tie the sam's haste], full-time hasso must be assumed. Otherwise, the dragoon has to use like an Ace's instead of a Turban to cap haste, making the sam WS that much more often).

Edit:
That was kinda an incomplete thing to write...
The sam has +40% WS rate, +19% WS dmg (With a 10% chance per hit to DA higher than the drg). The sam also has a higher crit rate on auto-swings, and more accuracy as I said (which doesn't matter as long as Hasso is assumed), and Berserk + Warcry.
The dragoon has wyvern, jump damage (I already counted jump into the TP rate), Drakesbane (+X% ws dmg vs penta?!), and 85 attack.

[Callisto]

The sam WSes ~40% more often, with +19% dmg per WS. The dragoon does have roughly 85 attack on the sam, but the sam actually has an easier time with accuracy than the dragoon (sushi caps accuracy, and lets you drop accuracy everywhere that makes sense on gear...for the dragoon to properly gear for max haste [to tie the sam's haste], full-time hasso must be assumed. Otherwise, the dragoon has to use like an Ace's instead of a Turban to cap haste, making the sam WS that much more often).

Somewhat off-topic, but would someone mind posting an example of high-grade SAM TP/WS sets for Polearm? I'm just curious as to what they look like, I'm familiar with DRG gear but not as much non-GKT SAM.

[test123]

It's not so much about unbalancing as it is about not opening with AF .3 seconds into the fight when everyone else is at 30% TP, lol.

Fk people who hold back just because they are too much of a pussy to tank a mob. I always en up tanking, spam WS or gtfo.

Same goes to those stupid ass BLMs who on events cast Burst II for a killshot every motherf there is, messing up with 100% TP killshot, now you gotta WS at start on next mob and tank that shit...

[Khamsin]

3- Convert VS sublim: although convert generate 900-1000 MP every 9.1-10min , sub is not 200 worth of MP, considering the difference in timers , I would put sublim in about 700mp every 10min which is although less then convert but you wont need to cure your self.

Sublimation is maybe 350-400 mp every 10 min, max. It's 2 mp/tick, minus the 30 sec between sublimations. You can't make it any higher.

And comparing it to a 10 min convert is silly, all the good RDMs have it at 6:40. During which time sublimation can only give you about 250 mp.

[Drace]

Somewhat off-topic, but would someone mind posting an example of high-grade SAM TP/WS sets for Polearm? I'm just curious as to what they look like, I'm familiar with DRG gear but not as much non-GKT SAM.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y18...SAMPolearm.png

Pretty standard Tomoe 5 Hit. Give or take the +1's/Love Torque and maybe swapping around the back piece depending on Pole merits.

[Pataki]

An aside, the overall civility of this discussion has been pleasant, but yeah, I do think unless there were 3 Kikokus flying around I'm going to have to call POIDH on the NINx3 32k/hr without anni bands and/or COR roll.

anni bands didnt even exist yet, empress onry.

[Milkster]

The reason most healers shy away from MNK/WARs is because of the hate they pull and the mp it takes to keep them alive. I've seen maybe 2 MNK/WARs (in my old linkshell) that knew how to do it right. I mostly make my own meripo pickup groups (lol). And unless someone says "xxx" is an amazing MNK/WAR, I won't get them.

[Callisto]

And comparing it to a 10 min convert is silly, all the good RDMs have it at 6:40. During which time sublimation can only give you about 250 mp.

Mine's at 9, I don't think MAcc merits should discount you from being a 'good' RDM, there are actually some mobs you may want to land debuffs on.

[Drace]

Forgot to post WS set - a good bit more flexibility in WS set imo. Could use Ochi/Bando, swap rings/back depending on merits, Hissho for head slot etc. Some people focus on more ATT, some on more mods.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y18...e/SAMPenta.png