Optimum Merit Set Up

[Tsuko_Asura]

And comparing it to a 10 min convert is silly, all the good RDMs have it at 6:40.

This isn't disagreeing. This is implying that anyone who doesn't merit their Convert recast(below the cap) isn't competent.

Furthermore, you're just assuming that, based on my calling you out for calling others stupid while looking stupid yourself, that my merits disagree with your 'optimal' layout. I was a soloist and a tank, nothing more, which was reflected in my merit choices(Convert5/5, Ice Accuracy5/5). That, however, doesn't mean that the event-only Red Mage who fully merits Ice and Earth Accuracy isn't any less competent than I am. They simply have different priorities.

Moderate yourself before you worry about moderating others.

[Raen Ryong]

I can understand Earth Accuracy for certain endgame monsters/solos, but wind accuracy I find completely unnecessary.

And I agree that you're not always riding Convert timer in every situation but the merits give you the option to; wind accuracy is contributing nothing there.

[Valisk]

6hit with a 492 weapon vs 5hit with a 480 weapon.
Also, your jumps/med vs better med isn't even at all, in 5 minutes:
2 meditates for the sam is +300TP, which is 3.75 extra WSes.
1.6 meditates and 6 jumps is barely over 2 extra WSes (5 jumps is 1 WS, 1.6 meditates is 96TP, which is ~1 WS, and you have 1 jump past that).

???

What is the "avg" Drakesbane you expect DRG to hit? Avg jumps?
What is the "avg" Penta you expect SAM to hit?

Yea I know, it varies and is dependant on gear but so are your other calculations. So give me a guesstimate.

[Shin Volcano]

I know plenty of Great RDMs that didn't merit convert, so somthing is certainly off here..

[Valisk]

It was in response to someone that quoted me from another thread saying I don't consider "what's your favorite merit party setup" threads advanced

You do realize that Advance and Standard have merged and there is no Advance (or Standard depending how u look at it) So it's kind of a anything goes until the new format is sorted out.

And you can power trip without abusing your power. Threatening to use a power that you have is just as effective as actually using it.

[Spider-Dan]

Light Arts, Penury.

Fair enough.

Composure+Refresh returns 820 MP every 15min (and composure saves about 120MP on self-hasting in the same time frame). Will Light Arts and Penury save 940MP in 15min? (This is a sincere question.)

I think a red mage is better, but I think the only thing worth mentioning for a merit party that a rdm brings is dia3. The rest is just mp/mp efficiency, which is countered by intelligent play as much as anything else.

I disagree. "Smart" MP efficiency only goes so far; when it comes right down to it, you can always sacrifice more MP for faster killspeed when you are not currently tapping out your MP reserves.

[FailureMidgard]

???

What is the "avg" Drakesbane you expect DRG to hit? Avg jumps?
What is the "avg" Penta you expect SAM to hit?

Yea I know, it varies and is dependant on gear but so are your other calculations. So give me a guesstimate.

Based on what you bolded, I am assuming you have no clue what I am referring to.
TP rate, and only TP rate.
If you have a 6hit build (any decent drg), then 5 jumps landing is enough TP to give you an extra WS (since a 6hit build means 5 swings while TPing).

As for the averages, I dunno exactly, but a 5/5 overwhelm penta is very close to a drakesbane, I'm not sure which is better, but they are insanely close. My last parse, I averaged just under 1200 average penta, and I fucked up at least a few times and WSed at <5%. Afaik, drakesbane averages 1100-1200 at best. Anyway, my penta gear is also lacking.

[Julian]

I haven't pulled with a song in ages. Mamool/Lamia/Trollbane, sup.

This. Also removes the delay from the colibri reflecting back before reaching camp.

And for the RDM merit "discussion," I very much enjoy my convert and ice accuracy merits. If convert is almost up and you still have a lot of mp extra, unless you're doing something that resists nukes, you should be throwing a blizzard3 or thunder3 at the mob. I guess that depends on whether or not you have real nuking gear or not, but I do. This of course doesn't apply to stuff that resists nukes, but Cerberus and mobs like those aren't all there is to end-game.

In places where time is limited, like Einherjar or Salvage (especially bosses), being able to throw a few extra nukes can go a long way.

[donnie]

An accuracy bonus when the target is missed.

How many optimal parties have DD under accuracy cap?

Disregard any parties where Wolfknight suggests that 85% accuracy is perfectly fine, as they are not optimal.

you have taken this out of context i assume, I was basically correcting a mistake and also it was originally a comparison between gravity from rdm VS auspice from whm on which would contribute more to the merit PT.

you have to remember also that auspice is casted on PT members so its not like gravity where it vanishes on every monster that get killed within 5sec.

Fair enough.

Composure+Refresh returns 820 MP every 15min (and composure saves about 120MP on self-hasting in the same time frame). Will Light Arts and Penury save 940MP in 15min? (This is a sincere question.)


I disagree. "Smart" MP efficiency only goes so far; when it comes right down to it, you can always sacrifice more MP for faster killspeed when you are not currently tapping out your MP reserves.

you have to remember this is a discussion not based on MP efficiency between RDM and WHM in general, its for merit PTs. and by that I mean a good RDM vs a good WHM in merit PT, which imo WHM does better.

to understand what i am trying to say is asking your self this question " how much MP is needed per 10min in merit PT?" you will end up finding that rdm and whm both will have no issue having that MP pool, so it will boils down between what I have said earlier in thread which is basically rdm only spells/abilities VS whm only spells/abilities

[Khamsin]

Moderate yourself before you worry about moderating others.

And when did I moderate anyone in this thread again?

@Mojo:

I meant what I said. In response to the quote of my statement in the other thread, I confirmed that I do indeed consider this "not advanced", but that I would wait until locking threads like these wouldn't cause a shitstorm. There is (or was) civil discussion here, but it is still not what I'd consider an advanced topic. I see no data qualifying a "best" merit party setup, nor helpful tips. It's just a "whats your favorite X?" thread. However, I admitted that locking it now would be in bad taste and only cause drama, so I left it as just an opinion. Self restraint was exercised, no moderation has been done, everyone is happy. What are you worried about?

[Wolfknight]

6hit with a 492 weapon vs 5hit with a 480 weapon.
Also, your jumps/med vs better med isn't even at all, in 5 minutes:
2 meditates for the sam is +300TP, which is 3.75 extra WSes.
1.6 meditates and 6 jumps is barely over 2 extra WSes (5 jumps is 1 WS, 1.6 meditates is 96TP, which is ~1 WS, and you have 1 jump past that).
Both are accuracy capped. As I said in my post, assuming the sam eats sushi, and the dragoon eats meat, the sam actually has -more- accuracy in his TP set. Worst case for the dragoon, he has to use an Ace's helm, and is now 1% haste behind the sam.
Drakesbane vs Overwhelm: I'll agree this is close to even.
Wyvern/worse polearms: drg

Samurai should be WSing ~40% more often. You left off 10% DA, you ignore the 12 delay difference, you think that 3.75 and 2.25 extra WSes is the same.
But yea, all berserk does is try to make up the ~85 attack the dragoon has over the sam., but the sam has so much more going for it.

40% more I'd like to know how you figure that, since 5 hit is 20% more ws than 6-hit, unless 10% DA and -12 delay = 20% more ws?
Also worse polearm you're really going to tell me -12 delay is better than 8~10 dmg on a weapon, I'd love to see where -12 delay offers a 9.3% increase in dmg at worse[86 tomoe vs 94 thal], and really if you want to agrue ideally the drg could use cletine/aurum body which is same delay and +5 dmg +3% crit. And mediate provides only ws dmg, while jumps provide dmg and tp and fully merited in 6 minutes you're looking at 7.2 jumps, which should average 250~350 minimal each, the which somewhat balance's sam mediate doing more, admitly not matching, but drg has more melee DoT due to naturally higher attack and weapon dmg, and wyvern which will typical parse 3~6% in three DD pt, depending how other DD and how on top of Deep breathing and Empathy I am.

edit:

Based on what you bolded, I am assuming you have no clue what I am referring to.
TP rate, and only TP rate.
If you have a 6hit build (any decent drg), then 5 jumps landing is enough TP to give you an extra WS (since a 6hit build means 5 swings while TPing).

As for the averages, I dunno exactly, but a 5/5 overwhelm penta is very close to a drakesbane, I'm not sure which is better, but they are insanely close. My last parse, I averaged just under 1200 average penta, and I fucked up at least a few times and WSed at <5%. Afaik, drakesbane averages 1100-1200 at best. Anyway, my penta gear is also lacking.

Well from my parsing data I avg around, with two support, 1350~1450 w/drakesbane depending how much Dia II being done and buffs compared to most even sam polearm parse I have saved of avg being 1189.8, though that number based on old parse and with slightly better gear he should be at 1200 fine.

[FailureMidgard]

Fair enough.

Composure+Refresh returns 820 MP every 15min (and composure saves about 120MP on self-hasting in the same time frame). Will Light Arts and Penury save 940MP in 15min? (This is a sincere question.)

Depends how active you are with your mp really. Let's assume you Cure5 exactly once per 2 minutes (or, 2 times per 4 minutes, since its charge based) for penury charges, that saves you 69mp per 2minutes, or 517mp in a 15min timeframe.
In order for Light Arts to make up the difference, you need to cast 4230mp worth of spells in 15minutes. You have 3 hastes per 3minutes, or 45 total haste casts at 40mp each for 1800mp. So 2430mp is left to be used, that's roughly 27 cure4s in 15minutes, which seems a bit high to me, but I'm usually on SAM whenever I'm in one of these merit parties being discussed, not rdm or whm, so who knows. Also though, don't forget /sch gives conserve mp, and somehow you have to count in saved mp on regen3, stoneskin that Solace gives, and the fact that a whm cures for 10% more. Suddenly that 27 cure4s only needs to be ~15-20 cure4s.
In any case, I do think a rdm does have more mp available, but I think a whm comes surprisingly close. And the whm can still toss in a pretty amazing Holy on wivre pulls/etc.
Oh ya, I forgot Dia2s, 30mp each, ~2/min (or more?) is another 90mp saved.

I disagree. "Smart" MP efficiency only goes so far; when it comes right down to it, you can always sacrifice more MP for faster killspeed when you are not currently tapping out your MP reserves.

Sure, I guess I kinda ignored that part, but I'll admit, I don't do that too much when I'm on a mage. I do it in not so optimal parties, if I see we are getting close to losing chain on a wivre, but I don't just nuke regularly to increase kill speed. I generally prefer to have an mp buffer, "just in case"

[Khamsin]

You do realize that Advance and Standard have merged and there is no Advance (or Standard depending how u look at it) So it's kind of a anything goes until the new format is sorted out.

And you can power trip without abusing your power. Threatening to use a power that you have is just as effective as actually using it.

Standard was aborbed into Advanced, not the other way around. Advanced didn't get removed, Standard did, with some amendments to Advanced rules. But that still doesn't make this an Advanced thread.

Furthermore, in order to threaten, I'd have to make a demand. e.g., I'll lock this thread if you X (or don't X). As far as I recall, I just said once the merger drama dies down, I'll be less lenient about threads like these because, in my opinion, "what's your favorite X?" threads aren't Advanced. The statement was originally made to save face and not look like a hypocrite posting in the very kind of thread I was quoted as saying I wouldn't tolerate. It was just blown out of proportion from there, compounded by my shoddy math on Convert's recast timer.

I would like to think I have a good record for not making baseless threats or abusing my power. But just because I'm a mod doesn't mean I'll be holding back my opinions, nor have I ever abused my powers to stifle anyone else's opinion.

[Spider-Dan]

to understand what i am trying to say is asking your self this question " how much MP is needed per 10min in merit PT?" you will end up finding that rdm and whm both will have no issue having that MP pool, so it will boils down between what I have said earlier in thread which is basically rdm only spells/abilities VS whm only spells/abilities

And the point that I'm making is that the question should not be "how much MP is needed per 10min in merit PT?", but instead "how much MP can I have available per 10min in merit PT?"

The amount of MP needed is determined by how aggressive you and your DDs are.

[richardd]

Best merit PT setup is: SMN SMN SM-- I mean, uh.. WAR WAR WAR RDM BRD BRD.

i love this guy, lol


ANYWAYS! personally my fav camp was jade. thats where the big boys go.

i was a mnk/sam/nin main guy. that was my specialty, but the job i enjoyed meriting the most on was DRK. i could never fall asleep with the amount of fun that job provides. I could care less if it wasnt my strongest job either. Just having the power to cast something while everyone is blindly hitting a puk after a flash or to use a bash on ga's, that job was sick. lol. some of my highest WS dmg was in Jade as DRK. good times ;

i think people focus too much on "whats stronger" and forget which job is actually more fun to play :/ Every DD has a potential to make a crazy exp/hr pty. even thfs w/o relics.

[Tsuko_Asura]

And when did I moderate anyone in this thread again?

@Mojo:

I meant what I said. In response to the quote of my statement in the other thread, I confirmed that I do indeed consider this "not advanced", but that I would wait until locking threads like these wouldn't cause a shitstorm. There is (or was) civil discussion here, but it is still not what I'd consider an advanced topic. I see no data qualifying a "best" merit party setup, nor helpful tips. It's just a "whats your favorite X?" thread. However, I admitted that locking it now would be in bad taste and only cause drama, so I left it as just an opinion. Self restraint was exercised, no moderation has been done, everyone is happy. What are you worried about?

Because withholding actual moderator privileges somehow abdicates you of your responsibility to set an example for other posters?

You didn't lock the thread. Great. That doesn't change the fact that the majority of your responses in the thread are either inappropriate cheap-shots at those who don't follow your ideal merit layout, or silly justifications for your inappropriate cheap-shots.

[FailureMidgard]

40% more I'd like to know how you figure that, since 5 hit is 20% more ws than 6-hit, unless 10% DA and -12 delay = 20% more ws?
Also worse polearm you're really going to tell me -12 delay is better than 8~10 dmg on a weapon, I'd love to see where -12 delay offers a 9.3% increase in dmg at worse[86 tomoe vs 94 thal], and really if you want to agrue ideally the drg could use cletine/aurum body which is same delay and +5 dmg +3% crit. And mediate provides only ws dmg, while jumps provide dmg and tp and fully merited in 6 minutes you're looking at 7.2 jumps, which should average 250~350 minimal each, the which somewhat balance's sam mediate doing more, admitly not matching, but drg has more melee DoT due to naturally higher attack and weapon dmg, and wyvern which will typical parse 3~6% in three DD pt, depending how other DD and how on top of Deep breathing and Empathy I am.

First off, fully merited jumps means 1min15sec on jump, and 2min30sec on high. That means in 5minutes you get exactly 4 jumps, and 2 high jumps. How is it I know your job better than you? It's 6 jumps per 5 minutes, like I said.

5hit pole means 4 swings to get TP to WS again, thats 4x480 = 1920 delay.
6hit pole means 5 swings, so 5x492 = 2460 delay.
Both of these are sitting at 22% haste on gear with 45% haste on buffs (marchx2, haste, hasso), adjusted delays become:
1920*.43 = 825.6
2460*.43 = 1057.8

Now then, in a 5minute period, you get 5*60*60 = 18000 delay.
The sam gets 18000/825.6 = 21.8 WSes, pre meditate, pre DA.
The drg gets 18000/1057.8 = 17.0 WSes, pre meditate/jump, pre DA. 6 jumps add 1.2 WSes for 18.2 WSes, pre meditate, pre DA.

Now we add in DA. 17% for the sam, 7% for the dragoon. We added jumps first because DA can proc on a jump.
21.8*1.17 = 25.5 WSes
18.2*1.07 = 19.5 WSes

Finally, we add in meditates. 300TP for the sam is 300/80 = 3.75 extra WSes.
The dragoon is a little more complex, since the 12tp ticks don't line up as exactly 1 extra swing like it does for the sam, but 5 hits is ~83.4TP, 1.6 meditates is 96 TP, so 96/83.4 = 1.15 more WSes.

This puts our final totals at 25.5+3.75 = 29.25 WSes for the sam, and 19.5+1.15 = 20.65 WSes for the drg.

Thats (29.25-20.65)/20.65 = 8.6/20.65 = .416; 41.6% more WSes for the Samurai.

Well from my parsing data I avg around, with two support, 1350~1450 w/drakesbane depending how much Dia II being done and buffs compared to most even sam polearm parse I have saved of avg being 1189.8, though that number based on old parse and with slightly better gear he should be at 1200 fine.

Actually, the 1200 was with 1 drk roll, no dia2, no minuets. With minuet+drk+dia2, I'm pretty sure I'd be at the same range you quoted there.

[FailureMidgard]

Oh yea, I guess I didn't really respond to your weapon discussion. It's only a 9.3% increase in damage if you assume a fSTR of 0. Thalasso is better for your white/autoswing damage, but not by as much as you are saying. However, when you get into your WSes and start getting WSC mods on top of that, Thalasso is doing ~2-3% more damage from the higher D value. Basically, the lower delay adds more damage to your WSes based on WSing more often (assuming you can manage the hit-build with it) than the base damage can ever hope to add. And Tomoe has 5acc/5attk also.

This is exactly the reason Hagun is good, but in a smaller scale. And honestly, the weapons are very similar (for their respective jobs). I don't think 1 is better than the other, both have delays that almost perfectly fit proper hitbuilds/etc.

[Khamsin]

Because withholding actual moderator privileges somehow abdicates you of your responsibility to set an example for other posters?

You didn't lock the thread. Great. That doesn't change the fact that the majority of your responses in the thread are either inappropriate cheap-shots at those who don't follow your ideal merit layout, or silly justifications for your inappropriate cheap-shots.

In our RDM discussion, I am not a moderator but a poster whose opinion differs from yours. So yes, that absolves me of any perceived power trips and moderator responsibilities, other than not doing things that would get other people banned. And claiming that good RDMs merit Convert is certainly nothing that would get anyone else banned or even an infraction.

Like I said, welcome to Advanced.

[Drai]

I've always been fond of 3 DRG/Mage and 1 BRD on birds, more exp per kill from each bird and can still kill all of the birds on the middle level before they repop, can't kill Wivre but it doesn't really make too much of a difference.