Optimum Merit Set Up

[donnie]

And the point that I'm making is that the question should not be "how much MP is needed per 10min in merit PT?", but instead "how much MP can I have available per 10min in merit PT?"

The amount of MP needed is determined by how aggressive you and your DDs are.

I think we agree to disagree lol, but to answer your question the amount of MP needed I think it falls into 3 categories:

1- overly protective melees: aka all melees /nin that thinks about tanking more then DD, this will probably net the less exp and less MP.

2- the messed up PT: 1 aggressive DD with 2 idiots trying their best to be aggressive but fails, this PT will be MP sponge.

3- fully aggressive and well played PT: DDs being on full attack and know when to WS/JA and when to hold back, sometimes using skillchains when its appropriate, (i.e both have 100% TP and in beginning of fight, the drk does catastrophe followed by ur gekko ). this PT will cost almost no MP because monsters die too quick to be able todo TP moves.

having said all this, I would say again that I have played both rdm and whm extensively and will still choose whm over rdm for merit PTs .

it all boils down to RDM only JA/spells VS WHM only JA/spells (which WHM wins), the MP pool depend on how efficient you are using your MP/JA which both jobs can easily achieve.

[Mojo]

And when did I moderate anyone in this thread again?

@Mojo:

I meant what I said. In response to the quote of my statement in the other thread, I confirmed that I do indeed consider this "not advanced", but that I would wait until locking threads like these wouldn't cause a shitstorm. There is (or was) civil discussion here, but it is still not what I'd consider an advanced topic. I see no data qualifying a "best" merit party setup, nor helpful tips. It's just a "whats your favorite X?" thread. However, I admitted that locking it now would be in bad taste and only cause drama, so I left it as just an opinion. Self restraint was exercised, no moderation has been done, everyone is happy. What are you worried about?

Do you require that the original post of every thread require some groundbreaking new formula for analyzing the mechanics of the game to be considered 'advanced'? I'd implore you find a single occasion where any topic that you ever considered 'advanced' was not predated by a simple question. It never happens. That isn't how people have ever communicated and it never will be. The notion that these kinds of topics will be locked (or that mods even think that they should be locked) is a concern of mine. Nobody will ever want to talk here if that's the case.

If it were up to me, I'd reserve moderation for situations that cause problems and leave the rest alone.

[The Blackrose]

Speaking of causing problems, this is starting to become a problem. Can we get back to the topic at hand?

This thread can stand on it's own two feet just fine.

[Khamsin]

I think we agree to disagree lol, but to answer your question the amount of MP needed I think it falls into 3 categories:

1- overly protective melees: aka all melees /nin that thinks about tanking more then DD, this will probably net the less exp and less MP.

2- the messed up PT: 1 aggressive DD with 2 idiots trying their best to be aggressive but fails, this PT will be MP sponge.

3- fully aggressive and well played PT: DDs being on full attack and know when to WS/JA and when to hold back, sometimes using skillchains when its appropriate, (i.e both have 100% TP and in beginning of fight, the drk does catastrophe followed by ur gekko ). this PT will cost almost no MP because monsters die too quick to be able todo TP moves.

having said all this, I would say again that I have played both rdm and whm extensively and will still choose whm over rdm for merit PTs .

it all boils down to RDM only JA/spells VS WHM only JA/spells (which WHM wins), the MP pool depend on how efficient you are using your MP/JA which both jobs can easily achieve.

Even when killing quickly, mobs can still spam TP. I remember back when ToAU came out, getting chain 450 on puks/mamools before they adjusted the spawn rate. We'd be 3x WAR, 2x BRD and one RDM, killing mobs in a matter of seconds and they'd still find a way to WS before death. Also, the melée were all /NIN but also very aggressive. Subbing NIN increased their damage (obviously, because that's what dual wield does), and they had shadows. However, they'd only recast Ni between mobs and were not the timid tanks from your example.

[pchan]

Did you miss the parts where I said "if you have acceptable accuracy on Lurkers, you have MAJOR overkill on everything else" and "if you add accuracy specifically for lurkers, you have to give up haste/ATK"?

Pizza for Lurkers means you aren't eating meat for everything else.
Madrigal for Lurkers means you are giving up March or Minuet.

God. This has been explained 100 times. Pizza is better than meat at mamools. You won't cap accuracy, even in you wet dreams. You will not break 90% accuracy even in your wet dreams. You will break 85% only with excellent accuracy gear. I'm not talking about accuracy on specific mobs here, I'm talking global accuracy on everything you'll kill, ranging from pikeman'wyverns to skoffins with undispelled wind wall. A meat setup on a mamool only camp ( tanjanya islet) will barely allow to break 85% even with excellent accuracy gear. If you add puks it's even worse.

You don't eat pizza for lurker, because even on MMJ philosopher of higher level you need shitload of accuracy to cap (401).

And your argument about losing killing speed on lurker (since you'd use mardigal) is irrelevant as ninja,skoffins and lurkers and have higher eva than what would cap you with pizza.

[Drace]

You are past accuracy cap with sushi, and nowhere near without. This is a little dependent on pole merits/etc, but you can def drop Minuet Earring and pick up Merman's (furthermore, you shouldn't have minuet in a bard+cor party), and can probably drop toreadors and TP in a lolstr ring (ya I know, TPing in str rings is wtf? But so is being past accuracy cap). These are both assuming sushi.
If you aren't using sushi, you need Cuch Mantle at the very least, but I don't think your build there without sushi is very good at all.

For your WS sets, you are past accuracy cap also /w sushi, should switch to things like Usu leg, warwolf belt, iota ring (you are 15acc past cap assuming 0 merits in this set atm, 9 more than that in your TP set?)

It is (obviously?) a sushi build - if I am full timing Hasso, yes I am 6 ACC past the cap (depending on the Minuet earring slot), with Seigan I am just under. So yes, I could swap into a STR ring for Hasso macros and Toreador's for Seigan, but even for me thats a little nit-picky considering I don't even use Polearm SAM at birds any more. If I had the points to spend, I would probably pick up an Iota, but that is very far down the list of priorities for me atm

For WS set, I should look at retooling it for bird camp ~

[Damane]

If there is a COR and a BRD/COR in a PT, won't the BRDs cor roll be buffed by the COR in the PT who is himself doing SAM and DRK roll... just a thought.

it woudl but you still have the issue of the roll loosing 1/2 of its potency due to the level differen of /37cor and the lvl 75 mains!

[Midnightjade]

I liked MNK MNK SAM BRD BRD RDM at North Mamool. We were clearing the place out and having to go down the hill to get the pair of mamool that hang around down there. Chains #150-#200 as we went along.

North mamool is good if you have the right party. But if you get the wrong people the mamool will take them down pretty fast.

[FailureMidgard]

It is (obviously?) a sushi build - if I am full timing Hasso, yes I am 6 ACC past the cap (depending on the Minuet earring slot), with Seigan I am just under. So yes, I could swap into a STR ring for Hasso macros and Toreador's for Seigan, but even for me thats a little nit-picky considering I don't even use Polearm SAM at birds any more. If I had the points to spend, I would probably pick up an Iota, but that is very far down the list of priorities for me atm

For WS set, I should look at retooling it for bird camp ~

Ok, I fucked up, with no Pole merits, yea, you're just a little past cap for TPing, but enough that you're getting nothing from that Minuet Earring. I guess keep Toreador's on, switch to Merman's would be good.

As for WS though, you gain 19 dex and 1 accuracy over your TP set, which is all past cap. So you're ~15acc past cap.
7.5 of that drop to pick up Usu legs (mods are roughly equal, since 2dex=1str), and you gain 10 attack.
Belt trades 7 acc for 5str. Iota gains the mods, with very little accuracy loss (since like you said, your TP set is a little past cap), and Minuet is actually comparable to Merman's, even if you only need 1-2 of the accuracy.

[Cream Soda]

Mnk/war + faith baghs can rip some shit up if you have a sufficient number of stones.

[tsola]

I've never tried WHM/NIN so I can't comment on that.

In terms of MP efficiency, WHM/SCH vs RDM/WHM is the same. Light Arts, Penury, Sublimation, Conserve MP(a lot of people don't give this enough credit, and RDM/WHM doesn't get it), +20% cure potency over RDM (Medicine Ring, Noble's), Solace stoneskin, MP efficient Protectra. I have played both jobs in merits at both birds and MJSP, and have noticed no difference. They both keep up just fine

So in terms of MP, it's the same. You are basically comparing Dia/Esuna vs. Dia3.

To me, I think Esuna is incredibly useful. There have been plenty of times where melee won't have TP at the start, and a Wivre will get off an early (like 70% HP) Demoralizing Roar, and then won't follow up with Boiling Blood, but will just keep using Roar.

[Daedalus]

MP who needs MP? I remember a month where my LS did MP-less parties.

BRD/NIN COR(DD) DNC/NIN DD DD DD at birds rocked so hard. The parse showed that our DNC did 10% of the total damage in that party. Not bad for the main healer. I think our usual setup of DDs were WAR SAM DRK. Rolls where Chaos/Fighter's and songs where double march.

Got chain to a couple of hundred each party, was a fun month xD

Only issue we had is we needed a SAM to jump start the DNC with Shiki else we'd risk not having any healing right at the start.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Dancer is never going to be able to replace a real healer in merit party that's on even the same plateau as 'optimal'.

[Cream Soda]

Hmm good point, for the haste advocates and what not, wouldn't dnc be better than cor? assuming the dnc is using the 10% haste samba fulltime?

[Tsuko_Asura]

Not until Dancer gets Corsair's Roll, no.

[Cream Soda]

or better yet for the dd dd brd brd cor rdm, wouldn't dnc > the 2nd brd?

[Tsuko_Asura]

Perhaps, but I'd just throw in another Corsair in lieu of the Bard, though.

[anathema]

i'm surprised people like dia 3 that much for meriting. 45 mp is a lot :\

the only thing i liked about dia 3 1/5 when i had it was to overwrite bio2 when we needed something slept.

[FailureMidgard]

Never thought about it too much. Good players don't level dancer! (kinda a joke, before someone jumps on me).
I've never seen a Dancer I thought was good though. That being said, mobs should be dying faster than the bard can put songs up, so unless you are also dropping the corsair's damage to make him help pull, usually the 2nd bard helps the first bard pull.

Assuming pulls don't slow down, it may very well be worth it, I can't say I've run the numbers or tried it in practice.

[Heavencloud]

Apoc DRK/SAM
COR
BRD/NIN
BRD/NIN
WAR/SAM
WAR/SAM

Outside:
WHM
RDM

= 40k/h, only had a chance to do it once though.