Religious broadcaster builds $4M home despite layoffs at his ministry

[EternityEnd]

You asked for an explanation and I offered one. Do I look like a fucking God to you?

No one has seen, heard, smelled or touched this being known as God, so they wouldn't know if you looked like it.

[Akucaen]

Isn't... all of your god's word concrete and "fact?" Who are you to pick and choose what your god laid before you as the one true word and path?

Kuro, read this.

[Sgtpayne]

Let me get this out of the way: I am a christian, in fact I am Greek Orthodox. If you're interested in what that means, please do check it out, as it is not christian in the modern sense of the word. It's a group that has by in large stayed close to the same since the first days of the christian church. I'm not saying that makes it better or anything, but it gives a unique perspective on how things were in the early days because it hasn't changed much, and perhaps that will give someone insight into how things have become the way they are today across all christian churches.

That being said, I've seen a few issues come up here, and I'd like to address a couple if I can without screwing it up too much. I can't make claims about the church, and I'm only a modest student of theology, so I'm sure I am prone to a mistake here and there as I try to explain how I've been taught.

Homosexuality in the eyes of the christian church (most of it anyway) is indeed looked at as a sin, but not the way I see some arguing it here to be. It starts in the belief that God gave people the ability to procreate (read about when Adam and Eve left Eden), and this is considered a blessing. It's not an attack on the lifestyle of homosexuality, it's the belief that to use sex in a way that was not intended (to have children) is a rebuke towards a gift from God. That's all it is, is a belief that this gift is to be respected and used in accordance with how it was intended.

As far as sexism goes, no one has really pointed out what they defined as sexist, but I'm assuming it's along the lines of women not being able to be ordained or being considered subservient to their male counterparts. This isn't what is believed by my church, and I never even considered it in that way either. Women are not subservient, and thought of as equals. Men and women are only different in their roles, not their status. It's no so much a matter of doctrine, but tradition. You must remember that the Christian church came from Jewish old law, and in that law men are the traditional leaders of the household. They are in charge of protection, keeping their family together, and loving their wife more than they love themselves. If you look into traditional eastern orthodox beliefs, men are to become subservient to their wives (not in the literal sense) in that they must show that they love their wife by putting her before themselves. It's all really just a balance of two people caring for each other by putting the other before themselves (I'll come back to this).

Since men are considered the leaders of their families in this tradition, men are considered the leaders of the spiritual family as well (the church congregation). In the orthodox church, priests get married. This is because of the view that you can't lead a spiritual family without intimate knowledge of how a family is to be run. Finally, this tradition came from the fact that Jesus picked 12 male disciples to go forth and establish the church. There's no sexism involved, it's merely the belief by the orthodox church that men are the heads (or leaders) and that women are the body of the family. One can't live without the other, it's considered symbiotic and equal. Believe it or not, this subject never even comes up in the church, nor is it debated.

One last point on that is that the highest position of honor that a human has ever held is the one held by Mary. In terms of honor, she is considered higher than everyone but God. The third in the list is John the Baptist. We are all afforded to the opportunity to do good works and even be saints. Priesthood is not considered a form of elevation above others, and is not to be considered a position of power or influence, therefore there is no subjugation, and no sexism. I can't elaborate on this without turning it into a giant doctrinal nightmare, but think of an upside down pyramid, with the congregation at the top, and the bishops at the bottom. That's how the distribution of responsibility (not power) is envisioned for my church. The leaders are there to support the people, to guide them, to help them.

Lastly, and this is my most important point. We are taught tolerance, and this is something that seems to get lost in translation. I am a member of one of the most rigid and conservative churches in the world, but above all, I believe that I can not look down on anyone for what they do or believe. It's not my place, and it's hypocritical. God is the only one I believe can judge anyone, not the clergy, not me, no one. Do I think that homosexuality is wrong? Yes, I believe it is a perversion of the gift to create life given to me by God. Do I think that homosexuals are to be looked down on, persecuted, or made to feel inferior? Absolutely not, and I am not afraid of the lifestyle or the choices. I will never tell them what they are doing is wrong, and I will never act like I am better than they are.

Quoting Leviticus is a good start, at least someone is attempting to cite a source instead of just throwing ideas around. One thing to remember though, the christian church is built upon the ideas put forth in the new testament. Jesus put forth several times that the old law was to be replaced by the 'new law' (your translation may vary) in that salvation is gained by repentance and loving others as yourself. In other words, be accountable for the wrongs that you have done and love everyone, regardless of who/what they are. How can that be interpreted as sexist, racist, or any of those other ists?

Anyways, I hope I haven't been too biased in my explanations, I only come to offer some perspective, not to argue. Each of your points is valid in some way, even if they went a little off the beaten path. Atheist, christian, homosexual, satanist, wiccan, whatever. You all have your beliefs, and I have mine. I will discuss theology with you any day of the week (theology and theoretical physics are my two favorite subjects in the world), but I will never tell any of you that you are wrong.

By the way, interesting news story today. When I was stationed in Egypt/Israel, I got to see part of the oldest existing Bible in the world at St. Katherine's Monastery (Mt. Sinai). It's spread out throughout the world, but they have finally digitized the whole thing in one place, and it can be viewed by anyone now. It's absolutely amazing.

Codex Sinaiticus - Home

[Kiro]

Arguing about a man who likes money who believes in another man who is invisible and lives in the sky is an awesome thread.

[Egon]

I'll just go ahead and break down the rational argument before we begin the ritual mud slinging:

Let people believe what they want.

Don't make me fucking pay for it.

I know i'm late but.....

Cap and Trade anyone?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!

[kuronosan]

No has touched, smelled, or been near the fucking Sun but we know what it's made out of and how it works.

The difference is, Science is absolute. Religion is not. That's why it's called faith. You're trying to apply logic to something that does not operate on logic. Belief in religion is irrational whether it's good for you or not. Humans are irrational by nature. You can't apply logic to that. All you can do is settle for a difference of opinion.

By my belief in God, I'm simply being human. I'm not going to spend my entire life trying to prove something that ultimately may or may not make me miserable. I'd rather make the most of it by just living. I digress.

The point is, what you believe does not define you as much as what you do. That doesn't change what you are. You can still be a Christian and not agree with the things that the church does.

edit: And I read what you said. The difference is I don't see anyone "religious" here telling you what a fucking idiot you are for believing in science and not in God/Jesus/etc. What I see is you and others acting bigoted towards people who hold a belief to themselves yet choose to act on what they feel is right or wrong instead of what they're taught to believe is right or wrong.

It's amazing you don't see that.

[Correction]

Yay Egon has arrived to this wreck. Where's Vaj/Leif?

[Day]

Lastly, and this is my most important point. We are taught tolerance, and this is something that seems to get lost in translation. I am a member of one of the most rigid and conservative churches in the world, but above all, I believe that I can not look down on anyone for what they do or believe. It's not my place, and it's hypocritical. God is the only one I believe can judge anyone, not the clergy, not me, no one.

I can't say I agreed with everything you said, but you fucking deserve some kind of internet high five for this.

[Day]

edit: And I read what you said. The difference is I don't see anyone "religious" here telling you what a fucking idiot you are for believing in science and not in God/Jesus/etc. What I see is you and others acting bigoted towards people who hold a belief to themselves yet choose to act on what they feel is right or wrong instead of what they're taught to believe is right or wrong.

It's amazing you don't see that.

And this is really the delicious hypocrisy that just makes me crazy for these threads. You summed that up well.

Edit: Didn't mean to double post sorry .'/

[bigrougabagel]

holy lol, i go to dyna and this thing adds 8 pages. not going to try and catch up, willl throw out some of my useless garbage later.

[Egon]

I'm sorry, but I don't believe in God because i don't see the evidence to support it. Just like I don't believe in global warming, I don't see the evidence to support it.

Please enlighten me /bg/.

[kuronosan]

Dear Lord I just got finished saying you can't prove something based entirely on faith because faith is belief in an idea that may or may not exist.

[Khamsin]

Maybe I'm missing something, but wasn't the $4 million home built with his own money, not donations or ministry revenue?

If it's his own money, then how badly the ministry is doing has no bearing on what he does with his own personal money.

If I owned a company and had $4 mil sitting around, would I be obligated to spend my own personal money to help the company when it falls on hard times? Or can't I spend the money I've saved up out of my own income and investments on myself?

[Correction]

Ahahaha foolish mortal, thinking this topic is about the news story as much as it is yet another opportunity for the usual gang to bash Christians and everything they stand for.

I once got a flu even though I got the flu vaccine. Seriously, why do people go to doctors anymore.

[Sgtpayne]

Maybe I'm missing something, but wasn't the $4 million home built with his own money, not donations or ministry revenue?

If it's his own money, then how badly the ministry is doing has no bearing on what he does with his own personal money.

If I owned a company and had $4 mil sitting around, would I be obligated to spend my own personal money to help the company when it falls on hard times? Or can't I spend the money I've saved up out of my own income and investments on myself?

It's a tough point to argue, I suppose, but I thought the same thing. I don't know what his platform is, but hes not obligated to do it. It probably would just be in line with what he is preaching is the right thing to do.

Day, I would hope you didn't agree with some things I said. Wouldn't be any discussion if everyone agreed, and I like discussions. I should totally post in the hadron collider thread. That stuff blows my mind.

[Neosutra]

No has touched, smelled, or been near the fucking Sun but we know what it's made out of and how it works.
.

Actually, I can see, measure, and detect the sun's radiation. And I could touch and smell it should I chose to end my life that way.

Pretty poor comparison to god.

[kuronosan]

Actually, I can see, measure, and detect the sun's radiation. And I could touch and smell it should I chose to end my life that way.

Pretty poor comparison to god.

You must have missed the line right afterwards, Neo. The comparison I was making wasn't to God. It was that Science measures the real and measurable.

You can't measure faith.

[Akucaen]

I measure faith as an inverse scale to IQ. The more you believe in your flying spaghetti monster, the more likely you are to be retarded.

Totally scientific.

[Melchiah]

You must have missed the line right afterwards, Neo. The comparison I was making wasn't to God. It was that Science measures the real and measurable.

You can't measure faith.

Therefore, faith is not absolute, and consequently nothing derived thusly is absolute.

Seriously, the only problem that people like me and Neo have with faith is church doctrine claiming to be the absolute and final authority on all matters.

We aren't bashing Christians, we're rejecting the idea of baseless absolutes.

[Neosutra]

No Melchiah, we just dont like our parents.