Religious broadcaster builds $4M home despite layoffs at his ministry

[Plow]

...creationism? If ninety-five per cent of the world's population believe in creationism, I'll eat my hat. Maybe you're mistranslating something. I hope you're mistranslating something.

Just to clarify, Firas is pretty much exactly what certain people try to make me out as when arguing against me. I'll let you draw your own conclusions from there.

[Neosutra]

I dont believe you are as dogmatically single minded on religion as Firas is Plow, I just dont think unreasonable assumptions based on faith (god of the gaps) is any better than argumentum ad populum.

The only difference between your two arguements is Firas is suggesting the existance of a specific god, which makes his arguement verifiably deniable, while your argument sits in the realm of logical fallacy.

[Faris]

i'm suggesting the existence of one God...im suggesting that jewish/christian/muslim God is the same, wtf.

you're mixing the method of worship w/ the existence of God.

me and Plow agree with God, what we dont agree is the message from God; like.i.said.different.arguement.irrelevant.to.this .

Additionally, does it not bother you that theism decreases as education increases? Does Allah not like education?

Actually, Islam very much encourages education...goddamnit, its one of Islams main recommendations..thats a jihad by itself; if you really know what jihad means

Homosexuality is real. God is hypothetical. Bashing a REAL GROUP OF PEOPLE because of WHO THEY ARE doesn't even nearly equate to bashing someone's imaginary comfort friend.

hey, im a real person^_^ look at my avatar, thats me.
and to me, homosexuality is a sickness; but i still hold my tongue (often).
they are both groups they both have standards, and they both get insulted when bashed.

Am i wrong to say to respect other people's beliefs? simply put, thats what im trying to tell you. why are you guys so butthurt about that? dayam

[Blarg]

Actually, Islam very much encourages education...goddamnit, its one of Islams main recommendations..thats a jihad by itself; if you really know what jihad means

Didn't really answer the question

[Kuya]

Kuya, the way to cook pasta in the microwave is to sacrifice an ox to the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Hail his noodly appendage.

May his noodly appendage bless my entrails!

[Mansin]

you're going in to detail, im talking creationism only. which God is a whole new argument. and for 95% of the world, at least give'em a bit of respect, we're not talking about a pop band here..its a very serious issue; so a bit of consideration and civil-way to debate is what im suggesting.

you shoot down homosexuality here and the thread gets locked or you get banned. but when you shoot down, God. oh-lala its freedom of speech.

fuck that.

This is really late, but I'm wondering what you mean by this being a "serious issue". Why do religious people feel that they are entitled to some sort of respect for their assbackwards, retarded, and baseless beliefs?

It's like this: If you talk to republicans about George Bush, and use foul language, talk condescendingly, and be an overall asshole about the subject, it's just like, your opinion man.

Then, when it comes to the subject of religion, use all the same words, continue to talk condescendingly, and be an asshole and then you're suddenly Public Enemy #1. Why? You deserve no more respect than someone who roots for a favorite football team, type of music, or political affiliation.

"fuck that."

[Faris]

i guess its a different cultures, you measure every debate as equal. I dont; different issues have different standards and different limits.

I'd dare diss your music, or the clothes you wear; but i wouldn't go that far with something more serious, like sexuality, gender, belief. I'm being a bit of a hypocrite here, because my boss is a hardcore republican; loooves bush and when we have political debates and bush is mentioned; i show some respect to the guy infront of her but at the same have a different opinion on his actions, because i dont want to offend her. on BG, i freely bash him out ::Edited: actually i dont even remember bashing bush even on BG, I dislike the guy, but never bash the shit out of him, the way you guys do to anything you disagree with.


fuck that, back at you.

[Neosutra]

You just called homosexuality a sickness, forgive me if I dont hold much respect for the rest of your beliefs.

And again, why do you think theism (belief in your god specifically) decreases as education increases Firas?

[Alleya]

hey, im a real person^_^ look at my avatar, thats me.
and to me, homosexuality is a sickness; but i still hold my tongue (often).
they are both groups they both have standards, and they both get insulted when bashed.

That is a belief, the same way belief in God is a belief. There is evidence on one side (that it may have a genetic component and is possibly influenced by hormonal balances in the womb) and absolutely no evidence on the other (that it's a "sickness", however you're trying to define that...)

See the parallel? Just because you believe it doesn't make it true. No matter what your belief is, it will always be subject to skepticism based on evidence. If you make a claim, you have to support it. If you can't support it, then please leave the room because adults are talking.

[Kaelan?]

Am i wrong to say to respect other people's beliefs? simply put, thats what im trying to tell you. why are you guys so butthurt about that?

Because most religious people take it for and it's annoying. And the worst part is most of them, like apparently yourself, have gotten so used to it, they don't even seem to understand what the problem with it is.

I don't respect anyone's beliefs. I evaluate their reasons for having their beliefs and from there on respect or don't respect them based on those reasons. You don't just get it for free. Same thing you do when someone tells you they saw a UFO or that Elvis is still alive or that the alignment of the planets affects your personal preferences. Except I try to be consistent about it by applying it to everything else too.

And again, why do you think theism (belief in your god specifically) decreases as education increases ?

Education was put there by the devil. You know, like fossils.

[Maxxthepenguin]

If you can't support it, then please leave the room because adults are talking.

Who are the adults here? Adults know how to have a respectful discussion without saying "your view on this invalidates any potential respect I have for you." Mansin's idea that attacking personal faith, something people hold as very important to themselves, deserves equivalent respect to somebody in Washington and not involved in the conversation is ludicrous and reeks of the perspective of a 15 year old Aspergers kid.

The fact that you guys don't know how certain religions, including Islam, have promoted educational studies as part of the faith is complete ignorance or, worse, it's you guys choosing to trust a correlative statistic based largely on American protestants over the basic groundwork laid out in a religion.

[Alleya]

I wasn't referring to this thread in particular, just the simple fact that if you try to carry on a serious discussion with educated people and all you can bring to the table is your faith, you will be stared at until you leave.

[Neosutra]

There is a difference between saying these religions discourage education in their teachings and saying that education reduces the likelihood of belief.

I am stating the latter. Why, if this is a reasonable concept or even "the truth", would belief in either of these dogmas decrease as education increases?

Why should we give this any more respect than a man claiming he saw a UFO? Especially when it is followed by such comments as "homosexuality is a sickness".

[Faris]

And again, why do you think theism (belief in your god specifically) decreases as education increases Firas?

that's just dumb, where did you get that from? i'm not going to be pulled in to this Q&A bullshit of yours, you got something to prove, prove it and stop acting like a retard. if you've mentioned it earlier in this thread then direct me to it, because im not going through 26 pages of your vagina flapping for atheism.

[Maxxthepenguin]

There is a difference between saying these religions discourage education in their teachings and saying that education reduces the likelihood of belief.

I am stating the latter.

Oh, I misinterpreted then. I apologize.

Why should we give this any more respect than a man claiming he saw a UFO? Especially when it is followed by such comments as "homosexuality is a sickness".

Being factually wrong does not mean somebody doesn't deserve respect. Being raised in a culture far less liberal than our own also colors people's views and that should really be taken account for. It does no good to disrespect him.

edit: lol nvm

[Demosthenes11]

someone that calls homosexually a disease deserves no respect

[Neosutra]

Here ya go Firas:

An Analysis of Educational Level and the Belief in God - Associated Content

In a recent Harris poll: "it clearly states that individuals without a college education tend to have a high level of belief, while those who have postgraduate degrees have the lowest belief in God. Statistics, organized in a table, show that 92% of those who had a high school education (or less) highly believes in God. On the contrary, it shows that people with postgraduate degrees are only 85%, with significantly less belief in specific science areas".

In another study called, "The Effect of Intelligence on Religious Faith" shows how the level of religiosity affects scores in standardized testing. The mean SAT score for religious individuals was 1022. On the other hand, those who were strongly anti-religious had a mean SAT score of 1148. These numbers goes to prove that those who less likely to believe in God, achieve more academically. However, those who have a strong belief in God do not perform as great.

Study on IQ level in relation to belief in god:

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...untryBelie.png

Source: the paper "Average intelligence predicts atheism rates across 137 nations" by Richard Lynn, John Harvey & Helmuth Nyborg published in the journal Intelligence.

Funny quote: "Secondly, the authors investigated the link between religiosity and intelligence on a country level. Among the sample of 137 countries, only 23 (17%) had more than 20% of atheists, which constituted “virtually all the higher IQ countries.”

"In 1975, Norman Poythress studied a sample of 234 US college undergraduates, grouping them into relatively homogeneous religious types based on the similarity of their religious beliefs, and compared their personality characteristics. He found that "Literally-oriented religious Believers did not differ significantly from Mythologically-oriented Believers on measures of intelligence, authoritarianism, or racial prejudice. Religious Believers as a group were found to be significantly less intelligent and more authoritarian than religious Skeptics." He used SAT's as a measure of intelligence for this study. [9]"
-^ Poythress, Norman (1975). "Literal, Antiliteral, and Mythological Religious Orientations". Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion (Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion) 14 (3): 271. doi:10.2307/1384909. ISSN 0021-8294.

In the US, according to raw data from the 2004 General Social Survey, those with graduate degrees were the least likely to believe in the afterlife or the Bible as the word of God, suggesting a link between religious belief and lower educational attainment. [10]

Additionally, one may say that theists are just less likely to enter the sciences due to conflicting systems of teachings with their own dogmas, as referenced via Ecklund and Scheitle.

Ecklund and Scheitle concluded that the assumption that becoming a scientist necessarily leads to loss of religion is untenable.

Ecklund says, "It appears that those from non-religious backgrounds disproportionately self-select into scientific professions. This may reflect the fact that there is tension between the religious tenets of some groups and the theories and methods of particular sciences and it contributes to the large number of non-religious scientists."

I dont have the links at work Firas that show global belief vs education trends, I will try to find them when I get home. But to be clear, the US is one of the most (if not the most) religious of the industrialized countries in the world, so you would see even more decline in religious and theistic belief by education level in other countries.

I would however expect to see different numbers in say... Iran, or other Islamic states where education is controlled by the theological government.

So again: Why does religious and theistic belief decrease as education and intelligence increases? Wouldnt a reasonable or "true" theory show the opposite correlation?

[Faris]

a fucking wiki page and an article, shut the fuck up seriously.

you're starting to piss me off now, muslims through out fucking history have been known to embrace education, development and science. now thats a fact you look up

[Kaelan?]

Adults know how to have a respectful discussion without saying "your view on this invalidates any potential respect I have for you."

So if I say I believe I have a diamond the size of a refrigerator buried in my backyard, and that digging in attempt to find this diamond brings my family together; that this belief gives me consolation, especially during hard times; that this belief brings meaning to my life; that I wouldn't want to live in a universe in which there wasn't a diamond the size of a refrigerator buried in my backyard - you would still not be the least bit inclined to completely cease to respect or take any of my beliefs seriously in an adult discussion from this moment forward?

that's just dumb, where did you get that from? i'm not going to be pulled in to this Q&A bullshit of yours, you got something to prove, prove it and stop acting like a retard. if you've mentioned it earlier in this thread then direct me to it, because im not going through 26 pages of your vagina flapping for atheism.

Most credible sources on the subject in the past, what, 15-20 years, at the least?

Creationist view: God created man pretty much in his present form at one time within the last 10,000 years.
Theistic evolution: Man has developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided this process, including man's creation.
Naturalistic evolution: Man has developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life. God had no part in this process.

Belief --------------- Creationist - Theistic - Naturalistic
system -------------------- view -- evolution -- evolution

Everyone ------------------- 47% ---- 40% ---- 9%
Men -------------------------39% ---- 45% ---- 11.5%
Women ---------------------- 53% ---- 36% ---- 6.6%

College graduates ---------- 25% ---- 54% ---- 16.5%
No high school diploma ---- 65% ---- 23% ---- 4.6%

Income >$50,000 ---------- 29% ---- 50% ---- 17%
Income <$20,000 ---------- 59% ---- 28% ---- 6.5%
Caucasians ------------------ 46% ---- 40% ---- 9%
African-Americans---------- 53% ---- 41% ---- 4%

Belief --------------- Creationist - Theistic - Naturalistic
system -------------------- view -- evolution -- evolution

Everyone ------------------- 44% ---- 39% ---- 10%
Scientists -------------------- 5% ---- 40% ---- 55%

"Scientists and Religion in America"

"Whereas 90% of the general population has a distinct belief in a personal god and a life after death, only 40% of scientists on the B.S. level favor this belief in religion and merely 10 % of those who are considered 'eminent' scientists believe in a personal god or in an afterlife."

% believe
in God &
afterlife

General Population - 90%
Scientists with a B.S. - 40%
Eminent Scientists - 10%

"Leading Scientists Still Reject God"

A recent survey of members of the National Academy of Sciences showed that 72% are outright atheists, 21% are agnostic and only 7% admit to belief in a personal
God.

Survey answers among "greater" scientists
-------------------------------------------------
Belief in personal God %
Personal belief 7.0
Personal disbelief 72.2
Doubt or agnosticism 20.8

Belief in human immortality %
Personal belief 7.9
Personal disbelief 76.7
Doubt or agnosticism 23.3

"Do You Believe in God?

Profession %
-------------------------------------------------
General Public 90
Scientists (in general) 40
Mathematicians 40
Biologists 30
Physicists 20

Public Praises Science; Scientists Fault Public, Media: Section 4: Scientists, Politics and Religion - Pew Research Center for the People & the Press
http://i416.photobucket.com/albums/p...nbg/528-56.gif
http://i416.photobucket.com/albums/p...nbg/528-57.gif

You could find similar studies comparing countries' average level of beliefs vs. their average IQ and finding an inverse correlation as well, though I consider those to be invalid mostly due to IQ being a crappy way of measuring intelligence (and measuring education is far more productive in any case).

edit: eh, Neo beat me to it.

[Neosutra]

Its ok, we can double penetrate this one, to beat the message in.

We quoted different sources as well, so they build on each other.

Let's see how he dances out of this one.