Religious broadcaster builds $4M home despite layoffs at his ministry

[Faris]

You are just going to ingore the evidence it seems, so enjoy your continued ignorance at believing Islam is "perfection", when statistically muslims are the least educated of any religion lol.

how about look a little back neosurta, since you're digging, dig in to Andalusia; Dig in to what we, the muslims have reached in previous centuries, when the church have burnt books about science, and burnt people for giving science a chance...

Look in to the dark ages of your time Europe, look where the muslims were at that time. go fucking read something new, stop reading your atheist rubbish for once.

did you even look in to what i have mentioned?

you know, when you present your bullshit, i really actually read it. I really do.

Islamic Herald - Islam and Science

Science and Society

Early Islam probably encouraged the greatest international, cross-cultural, intellectual collaborations, under the banner of science. A phenomenon that has not been recorded in history of science since.

Some great Islamic scientists

* Ibn Sina, philosopher and physician
Produced a standard medical text in the 10th century that was still in use in the 17th century.
* Al-Tusi, astronomer
His mathematical models were essential to the work of Copernicus in proving that Earth travelled around the Sun.
* Abu Jafar Muhammad, mathematician
Gave us algebra and algorithms that were central to the development of modern computing.
* Ibn al-Haytham
His work on vision and light helped Newton formulate his theories on optics.

Islamic science in a nutshell

* When Western Europe was at its lowest intellectual peak, from the 5th to the 15th centuries, Islamic civilisation was rising rapidly. A thirst for knowledge, including science, was encouraged by the religious leaders of early Islam.
* The works of the ancients, including Aristotle, Socrates, Ptolemy, Galen, Pythagoras and Euclid were collected, safeguarded and translated into Arabic.
* The chemical properties of alkalis and acids were discovered by Islamic scientists.
* The process of distillation was formulated and used to produce petrol from crude oil.
* Islamic scientists contributed to algebra, algorithms, trigonometry, geometry, chemistry, cosmology, astronomy, medicine and optics.
* Islamic scholars developed the concepts of modern hospitals, universities, observatories and civil systems.
* The concept of zero reached medieval Europe through the Arab nations who had probably learned of it from ancient Hindu and Chinese cultures. Prior to this Europe struggled with a system of Roman numerals, in which large numbers would consist of huge strings of letters. Once zero was incorporated, numbers took on the more manageable decimal system that we use today.

As you can read, its not debatable; this is history, not a theory, not a new recipe for anything - Islam strongly embraced Science and development, the first word to our Prophet (PBUH) was recite/read, please just think about, why would the same God tell us to develop where this development would prove that he is a fabrication of our ownselves

This is my God, this is your God that you neglect, the one that wants me to develop, wants me to prosper and at the same recognize him as the giver of this gift and enlightenment.

[Dimmauk]

I think Neosutra was talking about those Muslim countries education level in present day, not the 15th-17th centuries. You would think that a people that had such high education levels that long ago, would continue to be more enlightend and educated. So what happend? Radical Religion maybe?

[Alleya]

Firas that all leaves out one crucial element.

Eventually all those great periods of education and enlightenment came to an end. Why? Hint: Because of Islamic fundamentalists.

[zoobernut]

I find it interesting that you accuse Neo of not reading your post Firas but just a moment ago he clarified that he did not mean that Islam did not promote science or did not value science and intellect. Merely that in present day independent of what the religion may teach, there is an inverse relationship between level of education and the belief in god. In the world as the education level goes up the belief in god goes down. That statement has no connection to everything you just posted. Though I do find it fascinating all the information about Islamic scientists and the things they invented, thanks.

(Note I am not arguing Neo's point I was just trying to clarify it because I think you missed it.)

[Effluo]

I think Neosutra was talking about those Muslim countries education level in present day, not the 15th-17th centuries. You would think that a people that had such high education levels that long ago, would continue to be more enlightend and educated. So what happend? Radical Religion maybe?

Nah.. just the Crusades...

[Neosutra]

I already addressed your point Firas. Detailing past scholars that were Islamic no more justifies CURRENT data showing lower education among theists and especially Islamics than me posting christian scholars justifies christianity. How about the burning of the library of Alexander? How about the social oppression of women, gays, secularist?

What part of their society caused these cultures to move from great enlightenmen to great oppression? Oh.. maybe radical Islam.

Answer the question, why is there a negative correlation in TODAY's society with education and theism, specifically Islam?

You have a pretty weak god Firas if he specifically targets the less educated. Is he not smart enough to out-wit the educated/intelligent?

[Devia]

Did you even read the thread? lol

Yes, I've followed this discussion from the very beginning and have read every post. My first question was pretty much rhetorical but Zoober has summarized the sentiment nicely. Thanks to him for that.

[Kaelan?]

Why is it so difficult for most people in this thread to distinguish between organized religion and personal faith?

If a public organization does X, where X is something objectionable or publicly and plainly states or holds that its core principles are Y, where Y contains something objectionable and someone comes and tells me they're part of this organization and/or subscribes to their core principles, why should I not criticize them for it?

If they agree with part of it but don't want to be associated with the name, they're free to describe themselves by a different name and not actively associate themselves with this group. I don't call myself a buddhist, despite agreeing with several things they have to say (because I don't want to be associated with other ideas they have that I don't like). If you say you belong to Z you're damn right I'm judging you by whatever the core principles of Z are and/or whatever the main official spokesperson/people say. Even if you don't actually completely agree with every last part of that system, you're still actively supporting and endorsing the whole thing by being a part of it, knowing full well there's major problems with what it says. If you have a major issue with the founding documents of a country, which it states is and will always be its guiding governing principles and cannot be changed, what the hell are you doing living there in the first place? (barring places like North Korea, which don't let you leave and are a separate topic).

Look in to the dark ages of your time Europe, look where the muslims were at that time.

But what are they doing right now?

Because last time I checked, there was no shortage of writers being issued fatwas publicly by heads of state for the crime of writing a novel, apostates being condemned to death and now having to live under constant bodyguard protection after a nearly successful attempt at their lives, governments attempting to punish women for naming teddy bears and of course getting their knickers in a twist over a cartoonist doing his job, which I should hope I don't even have to link to.

Why is it that the more destructive and xenophobic these particular societies get, the more religion seems to be around, and vice-versa? Bearing in mind that being a fundamentalist means adhering more strongly to the fundamentals principles of the belief and the less people adhere to these same fundamentals, the more civilized they seem to get.

[Faris]

I think Neosutra was talking about those Muslim countries education level in present day, not the 15th-17th centuries. You would think that a people that had such high education levels that long ago, would continue to be more enlightend and educated. So what happend? Radical Religion maybe?

maybe to you, my Prophet (PBUH) was a just another preacher, human being trying to implement a system.


but it is a fact, and pretty much documented in all his seerahs (teachings) he mentioned specifically about the times where the muslims will be the ignorant ones.

Weak Faith, and when Islam will be just a worshiping religion and not really embrace it in our lives, and really understand and study what was the true message.

your colorful maps show that more uneducated people have more faith in God...and what im trying to prove to you that this is wrong, when im showing you a very much educated civilization yet very very strong in their faith in God, how is that possible if your reports says otherwise?


i'm telling you, this is the time of great ignorance. look around you compare civilizations with ours, compare life, look at what we concern ourselves in nowadays. Its ignorance at its finest.

[Tagus]

I love it when uncompromising people argue.

[Neosutra]

but it is a fact, and pretty much documented in all his seerahs (teachings) he mentioned specifically about the times where the muslims will be the ignorant ones.

your colorful maps show that more uneducated people have more faith in God...and what im trying to prove to you that this is wrong, when im showing you a very much educated civilization yet very very strong in their faith in God, how is that possible if your reports says otherwise?

Maybe it is a translation error, but you seem to be arguing with yourself here.

Not to mention, you quoting previous scholars and arab renaissance era's only backs up my claim that the more religious your society became, the less enlightened and educated the populous became.

How is it possible that my reports disagree with your opinions? Probably because your opinions are not supported by reality.

[Faris]

<_>

i'm stating that in times of great education and development our society have ever witnessed, we had the most faith in God, and religion was at a peak; how am i arguing with myself? you're telling me education kills faith in God...why didnt education kill the faith back then?

now Neo is telling me History is not a reality....OOOOOOOOOOOK MAN!

[Dimmauk]

So you are saying that the less your people believed in your god, the dumber they got? So then the more you believe in your god, the better you are at Math and Science?

[Devia]

If a public organization does X, where X is something objectionable or publicly and plainly states or holds that its core principles are Y, where Y contains something objectionable and someone comes and tells me they're part of this organization and/or subscribes to their core principles, why should I not criticize them for it?

You prove my point perfectly. Please understand that it is possible to believe in a higher power and not associate with or practice a particular religion. This type of faith isn't in your face yet some athiests clearly have strenuous objections. Why is that?

[Faris]

So you are saying that the less your people believed in your god, the dumber they got? So then the more you believe in your god, the better you are at Math and Science?

you're gonna act like a retard, so be it. i'm going to sleep.

cyah

[Neosutra]

So you are saying that the less your people believed in your god, the dumber they got? So then the more you believe in your god, the better you are at Math and Science?

Not only that, he is claiming that Islamic Fundamentalism was actually greater back then.

My data shows it has increased 10 fold in the last 500 years, not decreased.

islamic Fundamentalism timeline - Google Search

But remember, Islam is better than the weak Christianity, so it doesnt matter if they constitute to the least educated populous in the world.

[Tristam]

Education undermines religion when experiment and dogma collide. It all depends on what a person initially accepts as literal or true, and how receptive they are to facts derived by experiment learned later in life. It's difficult in America right now, because for some reason people are not very receptive to facts and prefer the intuitive explanations offered by biblical literalism or other fundamentalist forms of christianity. The political discourse hasn't helped at all really, the republicans have successfully made global warming and evolution political issues rather than scientific ones for example, further undermining the role of science in public life. Perhaps 15-17th century Islam was more progressive and supportive of a scientific institution than today, but that may have as much to do with relative wealth as theology. But also its possible that many of the scientific findings attributable to that culture did not conflict with any scriptural dogma. Mendel's laws of genetics and heritability were accepted by the church, Darwin's Origin of Species remains more problematic for fundamental churches.

Christian scientists had their own champions of science who were religious, but that does not mean they were good scientists BECAUSE they were religious. Christian centers were highly reputable places of learning, and contributed well in their own way. But Newton spent the later years of his life flailing about trying to prove that the trinity of gods in the prevailing theology of his culture was wrong. This is a total waste of time for one of the most brilliant minds the world has ever seen.

Today, the modern *secular* scientific establishment has produced, by far, the most important scientific and medical advances ever seen by society. Some of these advancements are dangerous, like the atomic bomb and eugenics (and yes that's me admitting I was wrong earlier for anyone keeping track.) But the knowledge of nuclear fission/fusion energetics predicted by theory and tested by experiment, and the knowledge of heritability that resulted in the disturbing eugenics movement, are still explanations for the natural world, no matter what the outcome may be. This method of inquiry, combined with a secular support institution (the government), is simply the best method we have for understanding the natural world.

Science is not and should not, therefore, be done with any attribution to god, even the most religious top scientists (and there are still exceptional scientists who hold to very fundamentalist viewpoints) concede that their experiments are materialistic in nature and provide materialistic explanations for the universe. If they don't do that, I assure you they're wrong or not being intellectually honest. Heck, there are great biologists out there still who believe in young earth creationism, and the idea that through evolution a god has constructed a "soul" for humans alone. But their theological musings are divorced from the reality they observe and report through experiment, and one day like Newton, history may consider their philosophical efforts to be inconsequential.

[Dimmauk]

These threads always remind me of this song

"Voice Of God Is Government"

Neighbors, no one loves you like he loves you,
And no one cares like he cares.
Neighbors, let us join today in the holy love of God and money,
Because neighbors, no one loves you like He loves you.
And what better way to show your love than to dig deep into your pockets.
Dig real deep, until it hurts. Alleviate your guilt,
Free yourself once again, because he gave to you, brothers and sisters.
Please give a 10, 25, or 50 dollar tax-deductible donation,
And I assure you your modest pledge will be used to censor TV and radio,
Ban questionable books, and contribute to many other Godly services.
No longer will young Christian Americans hedonistically indulge
In masochistic submission to rhythmic music, for with your monetary support,
There is no end to what we can achieve in this country.
The voice of God is government. The voice of God is government.
The voice of God is government. In God we trust, sinners repent!
(1,2,3,4)
Can't you see what we believe in, all our thoughts, all our reasons,
Pursuit of life and liberty and happiness we cannot see?
Speak of truth with a mighty voice, but politics are your real choice.
Hire men to change the law, protect and serve with one small flaw.
Voice of God is government. The voice of God is government.
Voice of God is government. In God we trust, sinners repent!
If we shun God and Jesus Christ, religious love is sacrifice.
Love for God is shown in cash, the love they send is mailbox trash.
With every pamphlet we receive, more money asked for Godly needs.
Build a million dollar church, with money spent on God's research.
Voice of God is government. The voice of God is government.
Voice of God is government. In God we trust, sinners repent!
On late night TV, God can heal, a certain force you cannot feel.
Love for money in God's name, religion's now a TV game!
Build a million dollar church, with money spent on God's research.
Build a million dollar church, with money spent on God's research.
Voice of God is government. The voice of God is government.
Voice of God is government. In God we trust, sinners repent!
Yeah!
Voice of God is government. The voice of God is government.
Voice of God is government. In God we trust, sinners repent!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2K_xZcjsVuw

[Kaelan?]

You prove my point perfectly. Please understand that it is possible to believe in a higher power and not associate with or practice a particular religion. This type of faith isn't in your face yet some athiests clearly have strenuous objections. Why is that?

Oh, well, I don't actually have any major objections to it if you're one of those "I'm spiritual but don't affiliate with any religion" people. As long as there aren't any beliefs that would cause you to interfere in other people's lives (i.e. "they're going to hell, I have to save them"), I don't really mind. I'm still against it as an idea, but I'm not particularly concerned whether other people believe that or not (unlike say, any religion which claims to have the word of god on its side, which by definition means they have to interfere with everyone else). Although it can vary and I certainly can't speak for anyone I don't know, the majority of the atheists I do know, have about the same opinion as me on this.

I thought that by "personal faith" you meant "I'm a christian (/jewish/muslim) but I don't actually believe all it literally, only the nice parts" (you know, the monty python kind of response you get when you ask most non-crazy religious people what they really believe).

[EternityEnd]

eternityend go choke on a dick plz, you misunderstood what im trying to say

How did I misunderstand what you were attempting to convey? I quoted what you said, and responded to each point.

Oh, and what a witty homophobic slant. Such quip!

To clarify my position in these silly debates, to whoever said we were all crazies or something: I'm an agnostic atheist. I don't believe the gods of a large majority of organized religions have even the slightest chance of existing, going on the bigoted-- very human-- discrimination in most holy books. However, I have absolutely nothing against people who don't believe in the woefully misguided tenets of organized religion, and merely believe in some sort of higher power. I think that's much more feasible, though I don't personally subscribe to such thoughts.

Hope you don't think I'm as crazy as that Neo motherfucker.