Running an Einherjar LS; Changing Policies

[Leroy]

Not too long ago, I posted here about Einherjar. My small ls was having trouble getting enough people to join with our standard requirements, so I took the advice of a helpful individual here and made an Einherjar specefic ls with less strict requirements.

For a while, it worked like a charm, easily cleared all tier I and II areas, and though we hadn't won a single tier III yet, we kept coming obscenely close and timing out on the last few %s on the bosses. Not bad for an ls composed of 80% pickup members.

The last few runs however, have been pretty annoying. The strength of our Pickup style of Einherjar is that we get many recruits, relatively easily. The Drawback though is quite easily seen: Poor Quality Control on members. Before, this wasn't really a problem. Sure a few were just there to leech Amps, but at least even if they sucked horribly, they'd contribute damage when we forcefed hem brd/cor buffs.

The last few runs however, some of our members were just godawful o the point they hurt with their presence more than they helped, culminating with a relatively nooby DRG MPKing us horribly last run. The fighting it started lead to a lot of useless drama, and sheer stupidity as I had to get rid of a lot of people because of two players.

I mean -really- stupid. The DRG was fighting random mobs by himself that we'd slept, which would then run around killing all of our sleepers/healers, and in turn lead to an easy 20/32 being dead/weakened. We told him several times to stop, turn off Auto-Target, etc. He just ignored it. So I told everyone to leave him for dead. My anger at him started a fight with one of his friends, who provoked a flame war between half of the people in the ls, through sheer stupidity.

"Fuck Feint, there's no point to capping it!"
"Feint is only good for Zergs, if you cant do it in 30 seconds feint isn't helping you!"
"I've got more important things to merit like Ambush!"

I got so tired of him saying obvious garbage just to provoke the members that cared about their performance that I booted him, and all of his lsmates. This lead to me getting spammed with hilarious tells about how bad we suck for not being able to win a tier III zone, neglecting to realize the fact that their members, leaders included, comprised about 1/3 of the ls roster...

"lol fuck you, we'll make our own Einherjar ls, and we won't even need Feint and Angon!"
"You just lost all the talent in your ls!"
"LOL fucking retard telling RDMs to waste merits on Dia III!"
"Who are you going to blame for losses now? LOSER LOLOLOL"

I'm really sad I play on PS3 and can't SS these, and many, many more, little nuggets of fail for my ls site.


Anyway, on to my question. A lot of our loyal/decent members want to bring more of their friends into the ls to help out. Normally I'd tell them sure and pearl their friend, but since that's what got us into this little bit of drama, I was wanting to put some standards into our ls. At the same time I don't want to tell people that their bestest, best friend in the whole, wide world blows goat dick and can't join.

Is there any way to implement some actual requirements without stepping on too many toes or what?

[Gunitsoldier]

Don't let retards in

[Braeden]

I was recently in a similar position as you. I run an endgame shell and a few months back started einherjar. We just didn't have the numbers and kept timing out on tier III. So I decided to make a seperate shell and recruit.

From what you're saying it sounds like you got a lot of members via shout which is never a good idea. I asked my members to ask friends which turned out to be the best option. We Now have a consistant 30 each run.

As far as restrictions go, you can make some but in reallity no set of specifications will ever stop assholes and poor players into your shell. There's plenty of people out there with 9 75s that don't understand a thing about this game.

My advice would be for trial and error. Pearl your friend's friends and see how they operate. Give it a few runs as there is many different situations in einherjar and there's a bit of a learning curve. Personally what I look for most of all is people who follow directions well. Gear choices and play style can be taught. After you've seen enough to know whether this player helps/hurts you you keep them or let them go. Repeat this process till you have the solid group you're looking for.

It takes time but it's well worth it. The most important thing is not to give up. It takes a while for a large group to gel. This is the process that I followed and I'm happy to report that we won our first tier III last night with lots of time to spare.

[Argettio]

Tis what happens when your shell grows too fast.

I would farm T1 and T2 slowly building in numbers and trialing members for a run or two.

Once you are happy you have 25+ good people then you could try some T3.

I was in a similar LS, it was joint run between about 18 people from my social/dynamis shell joining with ~18 people from and self proclaimed "HNM shell".

And the "HNM shell" just ran around fighting anything they felt like, ignoring the main assist (which was there shell leader).

We had their bard pull the boss as soon as he popped (more than once) linking the whole zone.

There mentality was "I have a E.body, you don't therefore I can do what I want".

So much fail that we gave up.

Its a shame as Einherjar is a nice little event, but it really requires a tight and organised team (not a bunch of epeen waving fucktards)

[Vedder]

I can't imagine doing Einherjar as a side event in it's own LS or whatever... Seems like it'd be too frustrating to try and constantly teach people the best practices of the event.

That said, if you need to expand membership I'd suggest getting freinds of friends before shouting or advertising your openings to everyone. Everyone needs to be on point for Einherjar and retards will slow you down more than anything.

[Drex]

As someone who ran a pickup Einherjar LS that fell apart after winning T3 but without doing an Odin:

-I would say don't let any melee in unless they have a mage job leveled or they are an amazing melee (not just gearwise). I was in a similar predicament, where our LS grew too fast and I tried to cover too many melee with too little healing. I eventually just gave up and started relegating late melee to an extra party, where they had no healer and died about 10 mins into the run =/ It sounds shitty but it got the job done, since the healers now had the mp reserves to focus on their parties instead of being stretched too thin

-Kick people who suck. It's really that easy. You need to be quick about it too, because if they lose you runs, then your good members get discouraged and leave

-Don't get pushed around by retards saying things like the quotes you mentioned. You did the research, they probably haven't. Dia 3 and feint are great in Ein, fwiw.

-There's no set of rules that will keep retards out, so leave an out in the LS rules that says you will kick people who do not follow instructions. It's that simple, really. If they can't handle /as Name, then they shouldn't be doing Einherjar

Eventually I ended up dropping it and doing it with my endgame LS with much better results. There's a friend on my server who runs a pickup group that's done 7 or 8 Odins, and my LS was nearly ready for one after a couple months, so pickup Einherjar CAN work, it's just much harder that way.

[Neosutra]

I say this time and time again:

Id rather do an event with 12 amazing players and lose than 36 shitheads and win.

And odds are, you have a better chance of winning with the smaller number of great players.

Seriously, /breaklinshell. If you dont have standards for your members, dont feel bad when they dont live up to them.

[byte]

I say this time and time again:

Id rather do an event with 12 amazing players and lose than 36 shitheads and win.

This is everything that is wrong with Einherjar. 30+ players together at the same time who aren't retarded is an outrageous requirement for an MMO that needs a miracle to happen. I really, really, really, really wish SE made it reasonable to win with 18.

[mdkuser]

Pickups is a NA problem, you guys need to educate your noobs. I don't understand why everything in this game done in "pick ups", from xp pts to more sophisticated stuffs like salvage/limbus/dynamis, is a pain in the ass do do, at NA/EU time zones. Its not hard, really...

My einherjar LS (JP) was initialy made by /shout recruitment in WG, mostly JPs, but like 1/4 is EU or NA due to the time they run ( JP midnight). Our shell is very sucessfull, even though most members are at best decently geared ( lolnyzul gear) some very well geared ( salvage, hnm). We even have relic owners (mandau) but they suck. We do Odin every 2 weeks and occasionaly lose a wing III ( once every two month or so). It's all about education and people knowing exactly what they have to do, working as a group etc. If someone is bad DD, its ok, have him go brd or cor, or healer/blm, you never have enough of those. The leader makes it clear for every new members, what their role will be and how we work. Its better to have your best DDs with one cor and 6 bard songs, than too many gimps with one bard.

I'll admit though that since last summer we have been almost only recruiting through friends of friends. However this might have been a bad thing cause some of those recruits have very bad attendance and basically leech...


edit: and yeah 24 odin since last year's june einherjar fix. almost perfect.

[nitsuj]

I also lead an Einherjar shell, and I just make sure it's known that someone is vouching for anyone they add.

Person A wants in, Person B asks me if they can have a pearl. Person B is held responsible for their actions.

Luckily we've only had to boot one person, though, so I guess I've had pretty good luck.

The best you can do is make sure you have a core 10-12 members of GOOD people *and* good players. Then when they start bringing people to the table, 9/10 times they'll follow this template.

A few bad apples will get in, which is why I *try* to keep about 40 people in the linkshell at all times (summer months it's been hard). This way people have to be on good behavior and show up on time, otherwise their spot will be taken.

Plus if you're 4 people over cap, and someone is being a jackass, it's pretty common knowledge you could boot them and still clear any of the 10 chambers.

Good luck!


Edit: to the people who can't imagine it working, it's just like any other side even LS. We've been at it a year and just cleared our 10th Odin. Pretty consistent wins, now

[Sonomaa]

tier 3 sucks, it sucks bad for great Linkshells, it sucks bad for terrible linkshells, it just sucks. Dont feel bad about losing a tier3, the bosses generally arent made to be cakewalks and some are just abusively overpowered to be handled without pinpoint precision

[Indalecia]

The only one I find abusively hard is Goat-in-a-chair.

KB is just fun. Who will outlast who.

[tymora]

My einherjar LS (JP) ...

JP Pickups in general work somewhat better than NA due to better herd instinct (perhaps due to an older and mature player base) in my opinion.

You don't have to tell them (most of them at least) to "listen carefully to the leader". Once the language barrier is overcome, they are in general easier to work with (think on the line of leading a herd of sheep around). On the other hand, you will have some issues getting a good (and fast) response when you ask for opinions on where to go and what to do. Leaders are expected to know just about everything.

--------
To the OP, I would think a bigger problem is the loss of confidence over continual losses to T3 Ein. This tends to lead to member loss. Been through 2 LSes before my current.

Rotating BRDs for 4-6 songs and zerging most T3 bosses tend to work well for us. (skipping other technicalities)

[Traydor]

In reply to the Original thread I might be able to give a few tips.

First, I run an Einherjar Shell on Hades. We did mass recruiting. The standards for recruiting were simple. You need to be 75, and we need to know what jobs you have. We mass recruited.

Also did I mention we mass recruited. The reason for mass Recruiting is simple. You are going to have members who show up every run wanting to get stuff, and members who show up once, dont like it and leave. Our shell has a constant (after about 4 months now) of 33-36. We have not recruited in over 3 months.

Standards: Kinda meh. You dont want to add the moron of the server to your shell obviously, but Einherjar is new for a lot of people, so not inviting someone who is a one job wonder isnt a fair assessment. Everyone has to learn in einherjar even the leader. Jobs are a big deal though. The biggest standard you need to set is going to be this.

Have someone choosing everyones jobs for them. (For those who think this is stupid see below.)

You need a general setup which is. 3 Melee Parties with 3 Bards 3 Whm's and plenty of DD's. ALL MEMBERS need their 2 hours, this isnt a debate. Every party, minus the BLM party should have a WHM. So your Sam's can sub WAR and your other melee's can sub SAM. Your secondary Alliance is consisted of a PLD/RDM a RDM/DRK a BRD a WHM and a THF (final member can be whatever in the tank party, usually was a job that needed refresh.) The other parties consist of the Random Melee that didnt make it into the First alliance, Your mules, maybe a dnc or sch or something for extra healing there in that little party, Blue mages also go here since there is no real place in the heavy DD alliance for them. I know Rangers are going to hate me for this, but No rangers if you can help it, they pull the mob away from the main set of melee and it causes delays, I know that this is an unpopular statement but it is a truth. Then your BLM party, consisting of either a Corsair (personal preference here) or a Bard. You're BLM's should setup a stun order as well, just incase you get a mob that will need it. Since Specific mobs will need it.

Your THF, should have Fient, atleast merit'd once. Your RDM will have Dia III Its 15% Def Down even if its 30 seconds, its 30 seconds durring Zerg that your Melee's can crush it, any RDM that doesnt have it, it wont kill you to use Dia 2, but Dia 3 is a big enough jump that I feel and many others agree, it is worth it.

Angon is also a Pile of Defense down.

Your Bards should be singing marches through the usual fighting tiers. Marches for melee Ballads for the mages. The reason for Marches over attack is that the mobs are going to die so insanely fast that Attack and accuracy wont matter with 30 or so members hitting it. When its time for Zerg mode, your bards should have Nightingale and Troubadour, if they dont find bards that do, you want songs to last as long as possible. Have your Minuet Merit'd bard sing Minuet's the other two sing Madrigal and Marches, easy enough.

Also your Bards are your Sleepers. They need to constantly be sleeping. Your PLD/RDM can just toss a cure on one or two of them and then get hate on everything, Sometimes it can be difficult with certain mobs, and they wont sleep without Sleep 2's, thats where your BLM's come in, in between nuking of course.

Have a Single assist. If you have people not following the assist. They get a Warning in Shell right away, if they dont listen. Have a talk after run, if it becomes a problem, remove them, if they arent focused enough to follow a simple assist through a macro they are expendable and you can find someone with worse gear but a better attention span to fill their place.

Finally Have only 1 THF. They are you're only puller. You dont need more than 1. You dont want more than one, if your guy that wants to play THF really bad has a Melee Job, and you have another guy who has THF and only THF, dont play favorites to your friend. This isnt Happy Funtime everyone gets what they want. Its 30 minutes of Focus, do your job, and have fun.

To help with Sleepga etc, I would recommend Poisonpots. Everyone should have them, I mean everyone, as well as Echo Drops and a Reraise Item. You do not have time for any slow downs in a tier 3. Especially if you get a bad draw. Einherjar is as random as it gets, you can get a shitty draw and will need to kill everything pretty damn fast, or an easy draw and be done soon. But have everyone be prepaired. No one should be asking for a silena, They can spend the money on Echo's Poison Pots and a RR item, it wont kill them.

In closing, once you have enough solid people and your around the 32-34 people on any given day, Throw in the 3 mules. You should be able to Solid Cycle Odin's every few weeks with that method. Just remember that you are there to lead, sometimes that means making the hard right over the easier wrong when it comes to tough choices.

This Method works for us. We win Tier's 1, 2, & 3 Constantly. And we have not lost and Odin yet (though Odin is a different setup and strategy of course.)

There are probably many other methods out there, but stick with that one, and hold a firm hand when it comes to your setups and give everyone a chance to prove themselves the first few weeks and you should be just fine.

Good Luck.

[Neosutra]

/breaklinkshell <t> is the only macro you need.

[Hosom]

/breaklinkshell <t> is the only macro you need.

Bind it to a key.

[nitsuj]

tier 3 sucks, it sucks bad for great Linkshells, it sucks bad for terrible linkshells, it just sucks. Dont feel bad about losing a tier3, the bosses generally arent made to be cakewalks and some are just abusively overpowered to be handled without pinpoint precision

This is very true. T3 is just luck of the draw if you have ANY members who haven't done that boss before, and even then a truly veteran group could just get a badly generated combination and wipe.

(i.e. goat in a chair! "PLD 1, I want you to pull, PLD 2 kite the boss.. But the demons ARE the boss? I was confused!")

[Marcicus]

/breaklinkshell <t> is the only macro you need.

Dear god, fucking thisssssssssssssssssssssssssssss. There are so many times when I did Einherjar where I wish I was a sackholder and could break some motherfucking pearls but I couldn't. Q_Q

[liggy 0]

few things id suggest is try n get all those that you know and trust to take up all the core jobs needed.

screen members properly and be through explaining your plan of action. take idiots to /tell n have them confirm they understand. /linkshell explanations and /tell explanations goes very differently and get across clearly. if they don't get it. this goes back to dont let idiots in.

the most important secret to every kind of group event (esp with pick up) is the art of CAPS LOCK. if you know how to use it without making it sound like you're blurting out hoo haa while being pissed that someone didnt use any lube on you. they will actually follow you instructions. repeat basic instructions if necessary. in the heat of battle even some players forget the little things. mages out of range, weaken take extra steps back, extra sleeps n stuns etc. reinforcement of info is the key, esp for pick ups. if you dont reinforce procedure... shit happens

after all that, duck you head between your legs n pray you dont get shitty waves + shitty boss

[Raen Ryong]

DRK is very good for Einherjar in my experience; not only is it a very strong melee job in its own right and debatably comparable with the top tiers (not opening that can of worms here), it also has STUN. Between BLMs and DRKs you can really stunlock the worst of mobs.

tier 3 sucks, it sucks bad for great Linkshells, it sucks bad for terrible linkshells, it just sucks. Dont feel bad about losing a tier3, the bosses generally arent made to be cakewalks and some are just abusively overpowered to be handled without pinpoint precision

This is also true. If you can beat tier3, don't worry about Odin much