More from Producer Tanaka (JP Button)

[Siniroth]

In other words, Ninurta Sashes would come off normal NMs if a certain group didn't kill AV and give SE the stupid idea of making him the owner of Sash/Futsus/Mars.

Or someone was bored and created items for AV and they were implemented merely because some group managed to kill him once

[Red Demon Taoist]

Who are these freaks who work at SE?!

MMM, the most prohibitively bewildering, offputting feature in the game took a YEAR to develop? Are they fucking retarded? Did they really think people would be so intrigued by its incomprehensibility that it would be a huge success? There are like 2 good drops now, but hardly worth the hours of poring over forums and guides to figure out how the fuck it's supposed to work...

Think about what existing features could ahve been improved in that time.

Yes, it IS silly to spend time creating mobs that aren't intended to be defeated. OBVIOUSLY. How is that not blatantly obvious to the developers? Are they so out of touch with HUMANITY? Do they really have so little understanding of human nature and what people consider fun?

Complicated, depth: fun. Arbitrary convoludedness: buzzkill.

Difficult encounters: fun. Impossible encounters: fucking retarded.

It's amazing how SE manages to create good [Final Fantasy] games, when they are seemingly so incredibly RETARDED.

[ringthree]

They need to be reminded that the best thing they ever did was Salvage.

[jimbobsonofgod]

They need to be reminded that the best thing they ever did was Limbus.

Cause I fucking hate salvage.

[Ayn]

I'll agree on the Limbus point.

MMM, the most prohibitively bewildering, offputting feature in the game took a YEAR to develop? Are they fucking retarded? Did they really think people would be so intrigued by its incomprehensibility that it would be a huge success? There are like 2 good drops now, but hardly worth the hours of poring over forums and guides to figure out how the fuck it's supposed to work...

Well, maybe the original idea they had was simpler, maybe it was more elaborate, or something else? But after going through so many channels, the final product we see today may have been nothing like they originally intended.

[Indalecia]

Fuck salvage. Limbus/nyzul please.

[tymora]

Who are these freaks who work at SE?!

MMM, the most prohibitively bewildering, offputting feature in the game took a YEAR to develop? Are they fucking retarded? Did they really think people would be so intrigued by its incomprehensibility that it would be a huge success? There are like 2 good drops now, but hardly worth the hours of poring over forums and guides to figure out how the fuck it's supposed to work...

Think about what existing features could ahve been improved in that time.

...

You obviously don't like the idea of 12-20k/hour exp runs from ~lvl 20 all the way to lvl 75.

[Suiram]

12-20k is kind of lowballing it lol But then again I know you aren't as picky as I am for those PTs

I'd say 20k minimum if you care to build a good PT for it, more like 25k. In the low-level runs I've gone on (Lvs 10~37, 4 melee, COR, PL) it's usually about 7k from chest, which means 1750 from mobs, so 8750 exp total in 20 min, works out to 26k an hour although it's not quite that because you usually relax in jeuno for a few minutes between runs.

And at merit PT levels it's even better. 9~9.5k from chest (so 11~12k total) with slightly faster runs (in the 15~20min range) so 33k/h min, possibly up to 45k an hour if you've got a really good group and you just keep reentering nonstop. This is all without ring.


Edit: This is just exp too, not to mention the various drops from NM maze and other things you can use it for. I sort of laugh to myself whenever posts about what a failure they think MMM is. The only complaint that really resonated was the nerfed marble farming the last time this came up, but the people who complain about that now need to read the MMM thread because about a week later all the info started coming in about V06 and marble farming is better than it ever was.

[Corinth]

AV was never meant to be killable, straight from the horses mouth! Really interesting interview though.

eh.... not really that it wasn't meant to be killable... just not really meant to be the main target of the players.



As for JPB Radio, we recently recorded our 7th episode so it'll probably be out sometime this week. Nothing really FFXI related but it was a fun discussion. ^^

[Yugl]

They need to be reminded that the best thing they ever did was Salvage.

I know you meant Limbus/Nyzul, so I won't kill you.

[Siniroth]

eh.... not really that it wasn't meant to be killable... just not really meant to be the main target of the players.



As for JPB Radio, we recently recorded our 7th episode so it'll probably be out sometime this week. Nothing really FFXI related but it was a fun discussion. ^^

Silly SE and their technicalities with what they say

[Red Demon Taoist]

12-20k is kind of lowballing it lol But then again I know you aren't as picky as I am for those PTs

I'd say 20k minimum if you care to build a good PT for it, more like 25k. In the low-level runs I've gone on (Lvs 10~37, 4 melee, COR, PL) it's usually about 7k from chest, which means 1750 from mobs, so 8750 exp total in 20 min, works out to 26k an hour although it's not quite that because you usually relax in jeuno for a few minutes between runs.

And at merit PT levels it's even better. 9~9.5k from chest (so 11~12k total) with slightly faster runs (in the 15~20min range) so 33k/h min, possibly up to 45k an hour if you've got a really good group and you just keep reentering nonstop. This is all without ring.


Edit: This is just exp too, not to mention the various drops from NM maze and other things you can use it for. I sort of laugh to myself whenever posts about what a failure they think MMM is. The only complaint that really resonated was the nerfed marble farming the last time this came up, but the people who complain about that now need to read the MMM thread because about a week later all the info started coming in about V06 and marble farming is better than it ever was.

It's a "failure" because people (EUs/NAs) don't do it.

I'd guess people don't do it because killing mobs in an instance really offers no unique challenge they can't get anywhere else. Also, it's so ridiculously convoluted. From the first second the NPC trades you the stuff, it's a huge WTF?!

There's depth and then there's arbitrary complicatedness.

I'm not saying NOBODY does it, or that nobody could possibly enjoy it, but it's just ridiculous to me that they spent and continue to spend so much time developing a feature that so few people care about.

[Not Kuno]

stuff

Woah nice name.

[Yugl]

The problem with the XP Maze argument is that the total XP is generally less than a traditional merit PT. If you do make 45k/hr, you're only making 45k total unless you replace *all* members of the group (Still declines since you yourself cannot redo your maze).

What are the costs of doing an XP maze?

Extra time spent finding members (More time to get members for this than XP PT).

Cannot continue to XP once you gain that XP.

No camp to yourself after you reap that 45k XP.

[ronin sparthos]

The problem with the XP Maze argument is that the total XP is generally less than a traditional merit PT. If you do make 45k/hr, you're only making 45k total unless you replace *all* members of the group (Still declines since you yourself cannot redo your maze).

What are the costs of doing an XP maze?

Extra time spent finding members (More time to get members for this than XP PT).

Cannot continue to XP once you gain that XP.

No camp to yourself after you reap that 45k XP.

...or because people dont know it exists and its "hard" to setup.

We all like to imagine that merit parties are all 20k+ chainfests but the reality is that very few parties get to that magic tier even on Colibri. The EXP mazes are traditionally not done because people dont usually deviate from the norm and because the general populace is ignorant to the entire concept of MMM. (Friend told me it sucks, so it sucks - rinse, repeat)

Remember, people are still whining about marbles being nerfed even though V06 runs have been shown to be equal to pre-nerf V01 runs.

MMM EXP mazes are meant to be casual EXP sessions but because we're so accustomed to the way a typical TPburn works (even when the party sucks) any alternatives are immediately dismissed for the norm.

[Yugl]

...or because people dont know it exists and its "hard" to setup.

We all like to imagine that merit parties are all 20k+ chainfests but the reality is that very few parties get to that magic tier even on Colibri. The EXP mazes are traditionally not done because people dont usually deviate from the norm and because the general populace is ignorant to the entire concept of MMM. (Friend told me it sucks, so it sucks - rinse, repeat)

Remember, people are still whining about marbles being nerfed even though V06 runs have been shown to be equal to pre-nerf V01 runs.

MMM EXP mazes are meant to be casual EXP sessions but because we're so accustomed to the way a typical TPburn works (even when the party sucks) any alternatives are immediately dismissed for the norm.

Even if you only making 15k/hr (Which you have to be trying to do as some melees), past 3hrs PT you're making more than the maze. The maze is nice if you're not the class (Go PUP!) that can pick up 15k+/hr XP PTs easily or just want one merit session;however, if you're serious about XP, you gain more XP total from merit PTs.

[ronin sparthos]

Even if you only making 15k/hr (Which you have to be trying to do as some melees), past 3hrs PT you're making more than the maze. The maze is nice if you're not the class (Go PUP!) that can pick up 15k+/hr XP PTs easily or just want one merit session;however, if you're serious about XP, you gain more XP total from merit PTs.

Correct but MMM is advertised as casual content and succeed it does as a casual EXP affair.

You dont have leave town, mazes are on average 15-20mins to finish and it's a very stress-free approach to EXP versus the usual cutthroat pulling that will happen from time to time at a typical Nyzul Thickets party.

It's just my belief that SE has done a poor job advertising this way of EXPing to the masses unlike Campaign which is alot more successful.

It's even better you can pick what monsters you want to fight if you're bored and want to change things up a bit.

[Suiram]

This topic got a lot of responses while I was out, so I'll try to hit the various points. I don't get the argument that MMM is a failure because most people don't do it. Wouldn't that be a failure on the part of the people who aren't doing it, and not SE? It's good exp, better than any regular merit camp, and the information is out there for anyone who wants to do it; this isn't the first time MMM exp/merits has been discussed. And I know JPs are doing it too, because their mazes are on Duplidoc. To my mind it's a lot like salvage, everyone said it was a failure just because they didn't do it, meanwhile a small percentage of people were going every day and pimping themselves out, and now it's mostly agreed-upon to be one of the better events in FFXI with a lot of the best gear for various jobs/slots/situations. Just because something's not popular doesn't mean SE failed, it means people are by-and-large sheep who only follow what's popular, not necessarily what's best, which we already knew.

And to correct something said earlier, it's not 45k/hour (or whatever) and then you're done after 45k. You're done after about 70k, since you can do the maze 6 times no problem without having to swap out any party members. Maybe that's "casual", I hate meritting so I'm fine with 7 merits in one sitting. And 15k/hour isn't casual use of MMM, it's a shitty MMM PT (if you're in a merit maze with a merit PT), just as 15k/h would be a shitty merit PT anywhere. That's all I can think of.

[Yugl]

And to correct something said earlier, it's not 45k/hour (or whatever) and then you're done after 45k. You're done after about 70k, since you can do the maze 6 times no problem without having to swap out any party members. Maybe that's "casual", I hate meritting so I'm fine with 7 merits in one sitting. And 15k/hour isn't casual use of MMM, it's a shitty MMM PT (if you're in a merit maze with a merit PT), just as 15k/h would be a shitty merit PT anywhere. That's all I can think of.

There remains two points against XP mazes:

1. There is still a cap to the amount of XP you receive unless you dual-box/use people's mazes without using your own.

2. If people leave the PT during the XP session (Not an uncommon occurance), then it potentially screws up the XP you receive if that individual hasn't used their tabula.

3. In a *good* merit PT (Good because it's better than the normal) with a COR, you can receive greater total XP before you hit 3hrs.

[Suiram]

If someone leaves your PT early it can't hurt anything, it can either keep things the same or help. If they haven't used their maze, then when the next person comes along they use their maze, no change. You have the delay spent waiting on them but that's no different than waiting on someone to replace someone in a PT anywhere (except it's in Jeuno so it's arguably even better here). AND if the person leaving already used their maze, then you get another maze, so make that 81k before you have to stop.

I guess a better way to look at it is this. It's the best exp/h, but you're not saying "I'm going to go exp for X hours, let me get the most exp I can get in that time," you're saying "I'm going to get Y exp, let me get that done in the fastest amount of time possible." 11.8k exp (whether done in 15min a run so 47k exp/h or 20min a run at 35k/h) is 70k exp using 1 maze for each party member. I don't personally see it mattering that you can't go above that, since you're making the best use of your time, and most people have other stuff they're usually committed to do ingame that they are taking time away from to merit, or trying to squeeze in when it's convenient (which again, is another beneficial aspect here).