How would YOU detect RMT players?

[Red Demon Taoist]

this will be an unpopular method but we use it to keep the forums free from a significant amount of spam and ad crap

Ban China
Ban Russia
Ban parts of korea
Done!

What you lose in customers is made up with peace of mind from the rest of them. Then you give china their own servers.

Didn't EQ ban Chinese IPs after only a couple years?

As far as I know it was rather well recieved...

[FailureMidgard]

So because less than 1% of XI players do it, SE should consider selling gil in an attempt to stamp out RMT?

The RMT would then just move onto "services" like Salvage, PL'ing, Nyzul and then what would SE do? Cash Shop?

If the RMT were smart, they would move onto that anyway, as after you get over the initial hump of getting a group to do it, it's definitely more profitable than vendoring grass.

And I never said SE should consider selling gil, I said allowed legit players to pay $30 a month for 1.5mil per account IS the same as selling gil. These legit players aren't doing anything but that with the mules, that is exactly what is happening.

They need to make it a lot easier to report suspected RMT activity (indeed, ALL ToS violations) in-game. We're helping them do their jobs by reporting this stuff, we shouldn't be punished by having to exit out to POL to report this stuff properly.

This a million times over. They need to redo their ToS (not allowing 3rd party programs in the current MMO industry is ridiculous), and then actually enforce it and make it easy on the players to report things. The fact that other thread can exist where a group breaking ToS is reporting people not for a stupid LS name is laughable.

[Yugl]

And I never said SE should consider selling gil, I said allowed legit players to pay $30 a month for 1.5mil per account IS the same as selling gil. These legit players aren't doing anything but that with the mules, that is exactly what is happening.

Your argument is that using an account for nothing but gil is the same as selling gil. If that's the case, then is a dual-box THF that is solely used for farming Angel Skins also the same as selling gil? It's an account used purely for gil purposes just as garden mules are.

I think you're forgetting that simply having the accounts doesn't mean they magically receive 1.5mil. The player has to be effort into raising that gil whether it be growing the new plant or reaping them when necessary. If I went to Brogames, used my coupon, and bought 5mil gil, I sure as hell would be pissed if they said I have to make garden mules and grow plants before I receive that 5mil. It's not selling gil since the money doesn't produce the gil, the effort does.

[The Blackrose]

Didn't EQ ban Chinese IPs after only a couple years?

As far as I know it was rather well recieved...

I don't remember this ever occurring. It would have been quite the hoot though.

One MMO I read about on massively.com allows users to get "bombs" they can toss at suspected bots, which makes them pass a CAPTCHA or riddle in order to stay connected. Innovative idea, possibly adaptable to RMT.

What are you going to do to prove that they are not RMT? Things like CAPTCHA or riddles or security questions are easy to do with bots. Once you start dealing with humans, what are you going to do? Sort of reminds me of...

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/security_question.png

Also, what are you going to do to people who abuse this functionality?

They need to make it a lot easier to report suspected RMT activity (indeed, ALL ToS violations) in-game. We're helping them do their jobs by reporting this stuff, we shouldn't be punished by having to exit out to POL to report this stuff properly.

It's an issue of "PS2 limitations," sadly.

This could be construed as a social problem and thus a social solution may be available. Make transactions between characters public and searchable. This is something within SE's power. Suspect someone you know finished their Ares's Cuirass with ingots they got from bought gil? Find out where that gil came from. They could mark in-game items with the method used to get it - did the character get the item from the AH or did they get it from a Nyzul appraisal or from camping a NM? Put flags on items, remove people's ability to lie about the origins of their bling. Moreover, publicly track server transfers and name changes.

This needs to be broken down on a case by case basis.

Make transactions between characters public and searchable. Suspect someone you know finished their Ares's Cuirass with ingots they got from bought gil? Find out where that gil came from.

Supposedly this is within the scope of intent for the RMT-PWNZER-v.1337 as I understand it. The drawback is it's accessible only to GMs. It would need a bit of retooling before it is opened to the public (ie GM pertinent information would have to be removed).

They could mark in-game items with the method used to get it - did the character get the item from the AH or did they get it from a Nyzul appraisal or from camping a NM? Put flags on items, remove people's ability to lie about the origins of their bling.

That would require a schema and interface rework, at the minimum. It's feasible in a sense, but where are you going to put said information for display? How are you going to account for items before this system went into place?

Moreover, publicly track server transfers and name changes.

Something that has interested me is how do they track name changes? Do they have to go into the billing records and pull up the information? Do they have a database table that tracks name changes associated to the character/server? Can only really speculate upon it.

However, I digress. I know EverQuest published their list of recent name changes for years, so it's not necessarily a new concept. But it can be agreed upon.

[byte]

One MMO I read about on massively.com allows users to get "bombs" they can toss at suspected bots, which makes them pass a CAPTCHA or riddle in order to stay connected. Innovative idea, possibly adaptable to RMT.

This sounds like a pain in the ass.

This could be construed as a social problem and thus a social solution may be available. Make transactions between characters public and searchable. This is something within SE's power. Suspect someone you know finished their Ares's Cuirass with ingots they got from bought gil? Find out where that gil came from. They could mark in-game items with the method used to get it - did the character get the item from the AH or did they get it from a Nyzul appraisal or from camping a NM? Put flags on items, remove people's ability to lie about the origins of their bling. Moreover, publicly track server transfers and name changes.

SE can do all of this, but they won't.

Best idea evar.

[enoch]

In response to TheBlackrose, the best medium would be the web. They're already relying on the web for SE account creation and the Linkshell community site, so putting transaction information on the web should be a no-brainer. Sites like ffxiah.com shouldn't need to exist - this is something SE could and probably should do. I've railed on this before, how SE dropped the ball on web and mobile integration. When you consider that game data is simply stored in a database, it's not rocket science to provide different *views* of that data.

As for how this would work with historical data, I don't know. I don't know how SE keeps their historical data, if they even bother to keep it at all. One would assume they'd have to keep logs for legal reasons, but I simply don't know and so won't bother speculating. Anyway, this is something they *should* have thought about and provided for sooner. (PS: you can always hire me, SE)

As for displaying item information, they could display it just below all the stats. Obtained via x method, on y date. Just like having it signed, just signed by the server instead of a crafter. No big deal, and would also aid in creating a stronger emotional attachment to the items you work hard for... it'd emphasize the *accomplishment*.

One last thought before I hit the sack - if transaction information were public, SE wouldn't *need* an RMT-pwnzer tool. It's my guess that the community would be able to use public transaction searches to police themselves. Gilbuyers would find themselves shunned to the point where they'd have to band together to get anything done - in which case it'd then be easy for SE to identify and ban them.

[FailureMidgard]

Your argument is that using an account for nothing but gil is the same as selling gil. If that's the case, then is a dual-box THF that is solely used for farming Angel Skins also the same as selling gil? It's an account used purely for gil purposes just as garden mules are.

I think you're forgetting that simply having the accounts doesn't mean they magically receive 1.5mil. The player has to be effort into raising that gil whether it be growing the new plant or reaping them when necessary. If I went to Brogames, used my coupon, and bought 5mil gil, I sure as hell would be pissed if they said I have to make garden mules and grow plants before I receive that 5mil. It's not selling gil since the money doesn't produce the gil, the effort does.

I'm saying the accounts are not being used to -play- the game. If not, maybe we can call Brogames' webform or whatever they use a little minigame, and I can say something inane like "I think you're forgetting that simply having spare cash doesn't mean you magically receive 1.5mil. You have to put effort into going to their website, filling out the form, then showering a few times to remove the dirty feeling you have."

I'm sorry, you are giving money to SE for the sole purpose of obtaining gil. Not to go play the game.

[shaddix]

I'm saying the accounts are not being used to -play- the game.

making money is fun nub

[Yugl]

I'm saying the accounts are not being used to -play- the game. If not, maybe we can call Brogames' webform or whatever they use a little minigame, and I can say something inane like "I think you're forgetting that simply having spare cash doesn't mean you magically receive 1.5mil. You have to put effort into going to their website, filling out the form, then showering a few times to remove the dirty feeling you have."

I'm sorry, you are giving money to SE for the sole purpose of obtaining gil. Not to go play the game.

Now you're saying that the effort of gardening is the same effort as purchasing gil from their website. Such an asinine remark in combination with your previous comment means that a THF character solely used to farm Angel Skins is the same as buying gil. It suggests that crafting mules used for gil are the same as buying gil. It's a ridiculous statement when you consider that people put real effort into working for that gil.

Gardening, much like fighting a Devil Manta and crafting *is* playing the game. It's even featured in the book as it's own activity. Just because you don't wish to acknowledge that gardening is playing the game, that doesn't mean it's a true statement.

[arus2001]

Can 'o worms anyone?

Is it really?

If you think about the core problem, it's the fact that seeds can be NPC'd for a profit compared to the cost of buying the crystals and initial seeds in Whitegate. This probably should have been nerfed long ago, but there was no shortage of, "Shh, it's my bread and butter!" complaints against the notion. While it's unsurprising RMT got ahold of it, they went the extra mile with an asston of trial accounts. I wouldn't doubt if some legit players did the same.

NPC price nerfs have happened before. Blood from bats, Remedies, Carbon Fibers, Firesand, Rusty Caps, and so on. Want to know what the ultimate difference between all of these and seeds are, though? There's some kind of limit somewhere you couldn't get around easily. Either you need a craft leveled, the mobs had to be up and drop with little competition to be worthwhile, or other players were indirectly helping you out by selling goods on the AH that you needed.

The only limit on seed production is how many dollars a month you're willing to throw at SE. 10 pots per character is rather insignificant if you can turn that into 30-50k every few days. There's nobody there to take your claim. You'll at least always walk away with something if you don't forget about your crap for a few days. A naked level 1 is just as potent as a level 75 with HQ everything and capped merits. This is probably as close to FFXI Welfare Checks as we'll get, but trying say this takes real effort is folly. It's free gil to anyone willing to throw real money at it. And, well, not everyone CAN throw money at it.

Typically, the argument chain goes on to gil fountains and sinks at this point with gardeners defending they're a much needed fountain and it makes it all okay. I could easily counter that if sinks are too much, we should attack those instead. Again, though, we need to remember the limits of the game. Dual-boxing a THF for upped Angel Skin drops isn't even close to the same league. In killing the Manta, you're preventing someone else from doing the same. You're not NPCing them. You're making your gil from another player, not the system (I hope). Their gil came from other players, BCs, quests, etc.. All should technically contribute to a modest inflation if all is well, but we're basically sitting on the beginnings of the next Christmas of 2005 if things go left unchecked.

So, really, how many button clicks does it take before the players stop considering something a for-self-profit RMT activity and just for-self-profit? We're throwing money at SE either way. Some more than others.

[Yugl]

Since I know that was in response to my post, I'll remind you that I'm not suggesting Crafting = Gardening = Buying gil. I'm using the other poster's ideology/logic to reach that suggestion (In which case I believe them to be wrong).

In other words, is it right to suggest that an account solely used for gil making purposes is wrong? Is it right to suggest that making gil through NPCs is wrong? These are the two arguments I'm against when it comes to previously posted ideas.

[arus2001]

If using an account to make gil is wrong, then sure, we should've all been banned long ago since that's an integral part of player progress. I know in my points, I at least attempted to mark a distinction between creating gil through activities and creating gil by just throwing more money at the situation.

Even if working with AH mules, while gaining more slots can be likened to gardening and more pots, player demand still dictates how many of those slots you're actually putting to meaningful use. There's also the unknown threat of competition with undercutting. Gil's going from player to player in the end, though.

At the end of the day, I don't really care if people RMT, run around with a WHM PL army, or choose to make their gil by soliciting cybersex in WG. I can appreciate the desire of trying to making the game more fun for yourself. I only draw a line when those "advantages" start becoming a "standard" for play. And while I feel like prices have been creeping up a bit unnaturally on my server, I can't 100% attribute that to seed farming, either. People can be greedy shits if they can get away with it.

[Plow]

Your argument is that using an account for nothing but gil is the same as selling gil. If that's the case, then is a dual-box THF that is solely used for farming Angel Skins also the same as selling gil? It's an account used purely for gil purposes just as garden mules are.

I think you're forgetting that simply having the accounts doesn't mean they magically receive 1.5mil. The player has to be effort into raising that gil whether it be growing the new plant or reaping them when necessary. If I went to Brogames, used my coupon, and bought 5mil gil, I sure as hell would be pissed if they said I have to make garden mules and grow plants before I receive that 5mil. It's not selling gil since the money doesn't produce the gil, the effort does.

I agree with you that it's not really reasonable to apply the idea of working mules to make gil as equivalent to buying gil.

But I very much disagree that it's reasonable for S.E. to set up a situation where you need to pay extra money in order to make that gil. Is it literally the same as Sony literally selling their gold on select servers? No. But it's still unacceptable in my eyes, just for the simple fact that if you're paying for and playing the game, it's silly to expect you to pay extra because your chosen method of gilmaking demands it.


And yeah there's plenty of room on your account and blah blah, I can't even begin to imagine having done cooking (let alone guild points) without multiple mules on another account that can trade directly.

Oh, you want to level cooking? Here, make this unstackable shit that takes 8 ingredients, 2 of which take 8 ingredients each to make, and 4 more of which require 3-4 ingredients to make. But at least you can buy these other ones from the guild... if you're fucking magic and can beat the bots.

[Reub]

Change the play online opening pages to free Tibet/Chinese free speech propaganda for a month.

Tell the Chinese government about it.

See if that fixes things.

End of thread! Winnar

[FailureMidgard]

Now you're saying that the effort of gardening is the same effort as purchasing gil from their website. Such an asinine remark in combination with your previous comment means that a THF character solely used to farm Angel Skins is the same as buying gil. It suggests that crafting mules used for gil are the same as buying gil. It's a ridiculous statement when you consider that people put real effort into working for that gil.

Gardening, much like fighting a Devil Manta and crafting *is* playing the game. It's even featured in the book as it's own activity. Just because you don't wish to acknowledge that gardening is playing the game, that doesn't mean it's a true statement.

Fine then, SE can just put an NPC in the game that whenever you talk to it, it gives you 500 gil, then bills you 5cents. Now it's an interactive part of the game, so it's all good?

What if they sold Bonanza Balls for $1 a piece instead of 2k gil? Maybe made the rewards a little better to compensate.

There is a line, somewhere, I have no clue where you draw it. And I never said Gardening isn't playing the game. I'm saying (and this is also based on statements from players I know that have used gardening) that "gardening" and setting up 3 mule accounts to do this gardening trick are different.

[Yugl]

If using an account to make gil is wrong, then sure, we should've all been banned long ago since that's an integral part of player progress. I know in my points, I at least attempted to mark a distinction between creating gil through activities and creating gil by just throwing more money at the situation.

I see the attempt, but the attempt is futile. Gardening *is* an activity. Gardening as an activity generates gil. However, people are not satisfied with the amount of gil they can generate on one character, so they make more characters for more gil. Is the effort the same as killing a Manta or crafting on a mule? Maybe not (Though it is arguable that some crafting mules take even LESS effort than gardening), but that doesn't mean you're paying for gil. You're paying for an extra character that takes up certain activities that are gil rewarding.

Even if working with AH mules, while gaining more slots can be likened to gardening and more pots, player demand still dictates how many of those slots you're actually putting to meaningful use. There's also the unknown threat of competition with undercutting. Gil's going from player to player in the end, though.

Your suggestion was that because the gil generated from gardening comes from NPCs; the means of doing so include paying for more accounts; and the ease in which this is carried out means that it is a form of gil buying.

Lets look through all these points as see if we can really suggest that gardening is a form of gil buying. First, transactions between NPC and the player. If we're discussing gil buying, then isn't the transaction of gil *always* from player to player? I don't recall RMT using NPCs to give out gil, so why is this even a suggestion? I get your point that gardening gil is more secure than other methods, but risk isn't the factor that determines what is gil buying.

Second, the means of generating gil includes paying for more accounts. Indeed, must like gil buying, the amount of gil you receive does scale with the amount of accounts you pay for. However, if I leveled an account solely for the purpose of completing missions (For gil of course, and this would utilized way back when 100k was worth shit), would that mean I am buying gil? Moreover, simply buying an extra account means you can generate more gil than having less accounts. After all, you could sell the adventurer's coupon for gil. Having more accounts simply means more gil generation (Note: This doesn't mean you'll have more gil, it means you'll generate more gil than you would without those extra accounts). Nothing about this is gil buying since in *any* circumstance, it takes individual effort to make gil. Whether that effort be gardening or farming, it's the effort that generates gil. You pay for the character, not the gil. Your character allows you to generate gil through individual activities.

Third, the ease in which you obtain the gil. It's quite simple. The difficulty of the task does not determine whether someone is buying gil. I get paid 50k to do someone's Genkai 2. Easy stuff. Gil buying? No. Going back to the first point, lets say he decided to pay me 50k in NPCable items (Meaning that I NPC the items for 50k). Does that mean I just bought gil? No. Lets say I buy a bunch of accounts for the Egg festival to sell eggs (And receive multiple new ones). Have I bought gil? Nope. Lets say I make a bunch of new characters to complete a repeatable quest with gil rewards (Lets say the Mage's Ballad one) and decide to NPC instead of AHing them. Have I bought gil? Nope.

There are a few points that you have made, but none reasonably assert that gardening is a form of gil buying. Although the gil you make is secure; the amount of gil you receive scales with the amount of accounts you pay for; and the effort is minimal, none of these conclusively determines that gardening for wildgrass is the same as gil-buying. In fact, if we did assume this to be the case, we could make the suggestion that gardening for Ice Ores is also gil-buying. I don't think anyone would agree with this notion and it's obvious that gardening is not equivalent to gil-buying.

Fine then, SE can just put an NPC in the game that whenever you talk to it, it gives you 500 gil, then bills you 5cents. Now it's an interactive part of the game, so it's all good?

In this case, your money goes directly to buying gil. So yes, this is gil-buying. For gardening, you pay for the characters, which are not limited to gil generation. It's quite simple if you think about it in terms of direct object v indirect object. What is the direct object in relation with your money? The account or the gil.

What if they sold Bonanza Balls for $1 a piece instead of 2k gil? Maybe made the rewards a little better to compensate.

Not gil buying. What am I paying for? The lottery ticket. Can I receive gil because I purchased the lottery ticket? Yes. However, is my money paying for the gil? No. If I made that assumption, it would be the same as saying paying for a lottery ticket (In RL) is the same as buying money.

Edit: Some believe "Coupons" used to obtain gil are an exception to the direct object rule. I believe that to be false since it's a means of transporting the gil.

[byte]

Fine then, SE can just put an NPC in the game that whenever you talk to it, it gives you 500 gil, then bills you 5cents. Now it's an interactive part of the game, so it's all good?

What if they sold Bonanza Balls for $1 a piece instead of 2k gil? Maybe made the rewards a little better to compensate.

They might as well. It would save us a lot of fucking hassle.

I'm not gonna cry about how RMT ruins the game. People will always cheat, get over it.

[FailureMidgard]

In this case, your money goes directly to buying gil. So yes, this is gil-buying. For gardening, you pay for the characters, which are not limited to gil generation. It's quite simple if you think about it in terms of direct object v indirect object. What is the direct object in relation with your money? The account or the gil.

Fine, it can be done once per content ID per month and gives 100k instead of the 500gil I said. Now it's ok? My point has nothing to do with the specific situation. My point is that there's a million shades of gray here, and you are spouting off your opinion as if it's pure fact. Personally, I don't even care if people buy gil, or if SE offered it, but I think it's silly to really think that it's that different.

Not gil buying. What am I paying for? The lottery ticket. Can I receive gil because I purchased the lottery ticket? Yes. However, is my money paying for the gil? No. If I made that assumption, it would be the same as saying paying for a lottery ticket (In RL) is the same as buying money.

Yea, and paying RMT for powerleveling or directly for a Byakko's haidate isn't gil buying either. That makes it ok? Is the problem "gil buying" or "RMT". "RMT" means you are paying money for ingame shit. It doesn't have to be gil.

They might as well. It would save us a lot of fucking hassle.

I'm not gonna cry about how RMT ruins the game. People will always cheat, get over it.

I'm not crying about that at all, but ya, I agree with you.

[byte]

I'm not crying about that at all, but ya, I agree with you.

Yeah, sry it wasn't really targeted as an insult to you personally lol. But there's far too much QQRMTRuiningTheGame going on. They don't actually have -that- much of a negative impact on the game at all. SE does though.

Camping against genuine players or camping against RMT, it really doesn't make much difference to me. They're still competition. I'd rather not live in constant fear of getting wiped out by one of SE's banning sprees.

[Yugl]

Fine, it can be done once per content ID per month and gives 100k instead of the 500gil I said. Now it's ok?

This doesn't change the situation. As long as they're charging you for the gil you buy (Whether it be 500g or 100k), you're buying gil. Gardening buys characters. Character can uptake activities unrelated to gil. The activities you do sanction the gil you receive.

My point has nothing to do with the specific situation. My point is that there's a million shades of gray here, and you are spouting off your opinion as if it's pure fact. Personally, I don't even care if people buy gil, or if SE offered it, but I think it's silly to really think that it's that different.

This is quite hypocritical of you to suggest. I was contending with the opinion that gardening = gil buying. You and Arus2001 appear to uphold that opinion as fact. It's a debate. You suggest that gardening = gil buying. I say it's not. If you want to contend with my suggestion, then put up an argument.

Yea, and paying RMT for powerleveling or directly for a Byakko's haidate isn't gil buying either. That makes it ok? Is the problem "gil buying" or "RMT". "RMT" means you are paying money for ingame shit. It doesn't have to be gil.

Now you're just trying to skew the argument. My argument was simply that Gardening =/= Gil buying. None of my posts were to assert what is right and wrong. It was simply to point out what is and is not gil buying. RMT powerleveling and buying a Byakko Haidate are not forms of gil buying. They are forms of RMT and RMT > gil buying, but gil buying > RMT. You're digressing from your original statement and trying to derail it by replacing gil buying with "right and wrong". Either defend the notion that Gardening = Gil-Buying or simply forget about it since I had no other arguments with you in this thread.