How would YOU detect RMT players?

[FailureMidgard]

This doesn't change the situation. As long as they're charging you for the gil you buy (Whether it be 500g or 100k), you're buying gil. Gardening buys characters. Character can uptake activities unrelated to gil. The activities you do sanction the gil you receive.

The whole point was it's once per character per month, so in fact, people just pay for extra characters.

This is quite hypocritical of you to suggest. I was contending with the opinion that gardening = gil buying. You and Arus2001 appear to uphold that opinion as fact. It's a debate. You suggest that gardening = gil buying. I say it's not. If you want to contend with my suggestion, then put up an argument.

No, I suggest that paying an extra 45$ per month for 3 accounts worth of characters for the -sole- purpose of making 4.5mil gil per month is essentially gil buying. It isn't the same. Make some sort of chart with 100=gil buying, 0=whatever the opposite is, this gardening shit is 90+, not 10 or 11.

Now you're just trying to skew the argument. My argument was simply that Gardening =/= Gil buying. None of my posts were to assert what is right and wrong. It was simply to point out what is and is not gil buying. RMT powerleveling and buying a Byakko Haidate are not forms of gil buying. They are forms of RMT and RMT > gil buying, but gil buying > RMT. You're digressing from your original statement and trying to derail it by replacing gil buying with "right and wrong". Either defend the notion that Gardening = Gil-Buying or simply forget about it since I had no other arguments with you in this thread.

I thought it was obvious when I made an analogy that had nothing to do with gil, that I wasn't referring to gil buying, but RMT activity in general. My bad.
While I personally don't even have a problem with buying gil, on the scale of "evilness" or "badness", I don't consider gil buying to be different -at all- to buying shit like byakkos from RMT.

[Plow]

I really think Yugl's argument that it can't be equated to buying gil stands up pretty well, the issue is with SE manufacturing ways to milk real cash from people that want to make money.

It's like gil selling, just that you're making the buyers work for it.


I mean, would anyone really argue that ACP, while it required "gameplay" to obtain the rewards, was anything more than in house RMT'ing of in game items?

Let me put it this way, how many people do you know that would've bought ACP without the item reward?


I'm guessing it's a similar number to the amount of people that would have multiple gardening mules if there was no gil to be gained.

[mcb]

while SE has tried to stop rmt, there seems to be a strong sentement by the players to stop it as well (this post reflects it). so why not let the players catch the rmt.

with any transaction there is a recipt given, what if a player was to buy gil, screenshot it and provide the electronic recipt to SE. SE would then have all the evidence of the rmt activity and lock down the account. to encourage people to report rmt the person who successfully reports with the proper evidence to bac it up could recieve any gil that character has (or the gil from any accounts that are feeding into the rmt account). this would require you to buy gil, but buying 1m might net you 20-30m as compensation. any advertizing done by would be advertizing the loss of a mule and potentially the entire tree of accounts that feed gil into the mule.

[arus2001]

So why is it okay to label ACP RMT despite the world traveling, item gathering, boss fights, and so on, but a bunch of mules hiding in their mog house clicking some pots every day to create gil from thin air is not? Is it because we can literally see the reward? Is it because it offered unique or alternative options to the gear slot? Are we just mad it wasn't worth $10?

If Content IDs were suddenly free, would everyone be expected to have 15 mules along with their main to run a steady regimen of seed farming just to keep up with basic costs of play like food and tools? Would we be calling people gimp if they didn't? How long before we'd start looking at IGE Christmas again because people are pumping out a few mil in bonus gil monthly? Okay, so for the moment these activities are limited to those with bigger wallets. Who's to say they still can't affect the economy with irresponsible spending?

From the exploit perspective, it's not much different than when Tavnazian NPCs were buying back some of their vendored goods for more than sale cost. In such it case, it was only a two step process. Have the money to buy, get it back and then some once you sell. No interaction with other players needed. Fast forward to now and you can turn 5k into 30-50k with a few extra steps over a few days. Yes, I know you can't predict your exact yields, hence why I'd been using money ranges to begin with. Still, the only time those characters see daylight is when it comes time to vendor. I don't care about their untapped potential as "playable characters" when we all know that's not what such mules are being used for. Especially when you consider no more than 1 of 16 IDs can be online at a time. Player time can only be spread so thin in actually playing this game and getting progress out of it.

So why beat around the bush? Just toss SE a few bucks and let them toss some random gil back at you in return. How many doing this would truly feel deprived of the joys of gardening? I know I'm cynical, but "I doubt anyone would!" doesn't even begin to convey my thought on that.

[enoch]

ACP isn't just RMT for the final reward. The augment system is set up such that it's something you keep coming back for, hoping for the best random rewards. It's RMT-over-time. Of course, that can describe most of the in-game systems. Keep 'em coming back for more. But uhm, don't forget about your friends, family, school and work. Yeah.

[Yugl]

If Content IDs were suddenly free, would everyone be expected to have 15 mules along with their main to run a steady regimen of seed farming just to keep up with basic costs of play like food and tools? Would we be calling people gimp if they didn't?

Since when have trends and the word "gimp" centered around one's farming habits? Farming habits are typically personal issues, and are never a reason to judge another character (Note that I am talking about farming as opposed to buying gil).

How long before we'd start looking at IGE Christmas again because people are pumping out a few mil in bonus gil monthly?

I could easily reverse this question and ask where the hell gil is going to come from if we limit all transactions to player-to-player transactions when non-transferable gil costs are still in play (Dynamis and Limbus). That type of thinking can play either way. I don't see how this suggests gardening = gil buying though.

Okay, so for the moment these activities are limited to those with bigger wallets. Who's to say they still can't affect the economy with irresponsible spending?

Gardening has been around pretty much since the game started. There has also been a default Ice Ore/Silver Leaves recipe for a while. Why is it suddenly a problem to NPC gardening remains? Is it because there is no player>player transaction? Do you want an item you plant to reap items worth *less* than the cost of production when done perfectly? If anything, this is the first time SE has their work done correctly. I think there are some points that you're missing.

1. It makes use out of the NPC. There's no reason for me to go to an NPC if the cost of the item necessary in production exceeds that of which is available on the AH or the product itself.

2. You differentiated between gardening and crafting because one uses an item from the AH and the other doesn't. However, you neglect the fact that gardening uses crystals from the AH in production. Many belittle this fact, when it indeed remains a reason why Alchemy isn't as successful as gardening. Holy water requires Light Crystals and Distilled water. The price of water is about 10g from certain NPCs. If crystal price were negligible, then I could technically craft/NPC holy water all I want. Why don't I? It's because the crystal stacks exceed the value of the product when NPCed and the stock is limited. Gardening falls under the same circumstances as holy water except that the supply isn't as limited and the cost doesn't exceed the value of the product. Now what is the point in mentioning this? The point is that suggesting gardening is gil-buying because the only player>player interaction involved is the cost of the crystal, then under circumstances where light crystals are more viable and affordable, NPCing holy water is no different.

I think your problem lies in a personal grudge against gardening. You make great effort to belittle the process while placing great emphasis on other activities. However, you cannot change the fact that gardening is an activity with rewards. You can garden on a mule. You can garden on a main character. Paying more money than you normally would for a character only amplifies the earnings from completing the activity. Unless I personally take action to set up dozens of pots/plants and check them at the right times using the right crystal, I will not receive the gil I desire no matter how much I pay. I guess the best argument to counter you point is that unlike gil-buying, I can pay greater amounts than another individual and walk away with less than them since the gil-making process is still contingent on my effort.

From the exploit perspective, it's not much different than when Tavnazian NPCs were buying back some of their vendored goods for more than sale cost. In such it case, it was only a two step process. Have the money to buy, get it back and then some once you sell. No interaction with other players needed. Fast forward to now and you can turn 5k into 30-50k with a few extra steps over a few days. Yes, I know you can't predict your exact yields, hence why I'd been using money ranges to begin with. Still, the only time those characters see daylight is when it comes time to vendor.

So now you're suggesting that it's an exploit because an activity designed to have higher product rewards than production costs is functioning as it should? You know why this isn't a exploit? It's because of those "few extra steps". Here's the sad truth you're missing. Those few steps are the exact nature of gardening. Why are you trying to break a *functioning* activity in the game? Crafters bitch and cry about how crafting is a broken activity. Gardening has found ways to side-step this problem. Why are you against it?

I don't care about their untapped potential as "playable characters" when we all know that's not what such mules are being used for. Especially when you consider no more than 1 of 16 IDs can be online at a time. Player time can only be spread so thin in actually playing this game and getting progress out of it.

Ironically, it's that exact potential as a character that not only excludes it from being gil-buying, but also allows them to garden in the first place. Buying the crystal needed; buying the correct pot and setting them up as needed; checking the plants at the right time; and other activities would not be possible without the features of a character. If it were mere gil-buying, then I wouldn't have access to these functions. I wouldn't *need* access to these functions. I would receive my gil directly through whatever means RMT use to deliver gil.

So why beat around the bush? Just toss SE a few bucks and let them toss some random gil back at you in return. How many doing this would truly feel deprived of the joys of gardening? I know I'm cynical, but "I doubt anyone would!" doesn't even begin to convey my thought on that.

1. You have more control than "Give me random gil".

2. Why not do this for anything in the game where I can make gil by having multiple mules (Quests are calling)

3. I don't think anyone would miss farming or taking up actual work in the game to receive gil.

[McGoonagle]

It's not complicated.

Gardening to raise gil for your own use is a sanctioned activity. I need 500k gil for a summoning ring. Three mules, 30 pots, 30x bags of wild grass seed, a few stacks of crystals and a few harvests, and I spend that money at the AH.

Gardening to raise gil to sell for dollars is not sanctioned. It is a violation of the ToS and should get you banned.

[arus2001]

Gardening has been around pretty much since the game started. There has also been a default Ice Ore/Silver Leaves recipe for a while. Why is it suddenly a problem to NPC gardening remains? Is it because there is no player>player transaction? Do you want an item you plant to reap items worth *less* than the cost of production when done perfectly? If anything, this is the first time SE has their work done correctly. I think there are some points that you're missing.

I would imagine the point of Gardening is to create items that either come from nowhere else or are relatively limited in production elsewhere. Will there be garbage yields along the way? Of course. Why, however, should Gardening be spared the fate of crafting with NQs selling for losses (Both AH and NPC) with the occasional HQ maybe breaking even or above? There's already plenty of useless synths, just as there are plenty of useless gardening recipes.

I do remember when Tree Saplings and Ores were the big thing with gardening. I was relatively okay with them, too. You're either out getting Tree Cuttings from Goobs or buying from the AH and then waiting a few weeks to get those up to Saplings. Repeat the process on the Saplings and maybe you'd get lucky with an Ore. Your own personal gardening HQ synth. People dared not NPC these, as they fueled our precious elemental staves and high level rings. Though SE later made Shell Bugs a possible yield. Probably to cut back on the profits of RMT and the closet plantations.

Even if you're alone in a zone farming mobs for whatever, you're still interacting more and doing more with the game. Even with that, there are times where you'll probably walk away with less than what this bullshit gardening can produce weekly with enough mules. If Dynamis, WG AH/Bazaar fees, and other sinks are sapping too much gil? Fucking lower them more instead since it'd help EVERYBODY and not the guy with the small plantation. Or maybe make Gil Finder mean something and let appropriate mobs drop more than a 100 and some gil. Give the THFs something to do since lock picking has been virtually abandoned by SE. Plenty of options SE could run with, and it's not like haven't indirectly obsoleted gil transfers through high-end quest rewards or R/E NM drops. Hell, let's go all D2 and change the economy to Perfect Gems people can get from everywhere and now used in augmenting gear. I have 50 pskulls!

Fountains are fine, sure, but only if everyone can fairly partake. The ability to pay for additional accounts or content IDs is not a matter of game limitations like pop timers or drop rates. It is a real world condition that not everyone can work around. Nevermind the fact some actually blink and say, "You have 48 gardening mules? Man, you're fucking stupid." Sure, they may envy the gil production, but we know those characters are just taking up server space for the rest of the 23 hours and 55 minutes a day they're not online.

[Kenji]

Direct RMT has been addressed quite a bit, so I'm going to focus on Trial Accounts. Games like WoW have trial accounts, too, but they are limited in what they can do, so as to not be be likable by RMT.

1. Trial accounts should not be able to send /tells. They can CTRL+R to reply to someone who sent them a /tell, only. No more Gil selling spam.

2. A trial account cannot access the delivery system to *send* anything to anyone, nor can they do trades. They can receive items to their dbox only, and take them out. This makes them unusable as gil farmers, and yet you can still help out a legit new player on a trial account.

3. They cannot invite people to parties(but can be invited by others). Not a big issue now, but it will be, once #1 is implemented. People got invited in WoW to groups/raids by free trial RMTs just to be spammed RMT messages.

You have to make RMTs buy new accounts and actually spend money, so that the price of selling gil goes up. The higher it goes, the less people will buy gil and the less it affects your game. Any new account should suffer the restrictions, until payment has been cleared. Also, 100+ new accounts by RMT are generating income, that you can use to monitor them and use to improve the game. You just have to minimize their impact on players.

The last method to minimize RMT, is to cut out incredible gil sinks, ie, Relic/Mythic weapons. They need to be altered, and there needs to be some fix for super expensive stuff like a kraken club. Because things cost so much, people are very tempted to buy gil to get them. In WoW, other than your mount costs, there really isn't any super-expensive stuff. You need money to repair your armor and buy consumables, and perhaps stuff for crafting, and that's it.

Obviously, FFXI's economy is more player-driven than WoW, so the analogy isn't perfect. Really good stuff needs to be put on a "have to work for" system that doesn't require copious amounts of gil. If you drop the alex requirement from Mythics, then it becomes a perfect poster child for what the system should be like. Relic Weapons would be harder to modify, but I'd suggest an allowance of currency for each person who finishes a zone. Like Einherjar, give out some kind of dynamis points, which are then redeemable at an NPC for currency. This floods the system with currency and makes a Relic weapon cheaper, and also allows people to work toward one without having to buy currency. With the hint about ancient currency being available in WotG, it might make sense to have an NPC that "buys" your dynamis points, and pays you in currency. One NPC in each town, for each type of currency. (This might open the door for possible use of currency to buy a particular relic piece, albeit not cheap; solves the problem of "it never drops for me." After several months of runs, you'd have enough currency to buy a piece)

Salvage armor isn't too bad, so I'd probably just add a few more ways to get khroma and orihalcum; ANNM was a good start. Otherwise, the cost is closely on par with the power given by the bodies.

What we are left with, is the extremely high priced items like k.club, that were set by the players. These are harder to deal with, because of the ideas I've thought of won't make groups of people too happy. You can't really increase the drop, because k.club+drk is really powerful. You'd have to adjust everything else in the game to nerf the advantage gained, like with AV. Obviously, that won't make the ones with k.clubs happy. Neither would nerfing the weapon itself.

Anyway, going after RMT themselves is not the only way. You can make adjustments to the game itself, to defeat RMT's purpose. I never once felt the need to buy gold in WoW (and it helped that you could mind-control RMT farming bots to jump off a cliff and kill them, heheheh).

[Deimos]

1. Trial accounts should not be able to send /tells. They can CTRL+R to reply to someone who sent them a /tell, only. No more Gil selling spam.

2. A trial account cannot access the delivery system to *send* anything to anyone, nor can they do trades. They can receive items to their dbox only, and take them out. This makes them unusable as gil farmers, and yet you can still help out a legit new player on a trial account.

3. They cannot invite people to parties(but can be invited by others). Not a big issue now, but it will be, once #1 is implemented. People got invited in WoW to groups/raids by free trial RMTs just to be spammed RMT messages.

I like the "everything must be initiated by a paying player" theme here, that would do nicely I think. One loophole, however, is the auction house. The AH would still allow trial accounts to transfer gil/items, so I think you'd have to disable trial account access to the AH totally, which is a pretty significant blow to trial accounts.

I suppose with only two weeks to play, a player should generally be able to get by with only items buyable from NPC vendors, but it's still not really representative of the game. Hell, I don't think I even knew about the AH for the first couple of weeks that I played, I remember selling Beastmen's Seals and Silk Threads to NPCs because I didn't realize that there was anything better to do with them.

[Yugl]

I've PMed the response to the other portion of your post since it's veering off-topic (Discussing the repercussions of gardening as opposed to defending the notion that it is gil-buying).

Fountains are fine, sure, but only if everyone can fairly partake. The ability to pay for additional accounts or content IDs is not a matter of game limitations like pop timers or drop rates. It is a real world condition that not everyone can work around. Nevermind the fact some actually blink and say, "You have 48 gardening mules? Man, you're fucking stupid." Sure, they may envy the gil production, but we know those characters are just taking up server space for the rest of the 23 hours and 55 minutes a day they're not online.

You're suggesting that the *only* limitation to gardening is the amount of money you pay SE. You belittle the effort and the activity itself in doing so. Moreover, you use this to suggest that gardening=gil-buying. Now here's the logic that can solve all of this:

If gardening=gilbuying, then we have to believe that the *only* the people who currently garden would buy gil if offered by SE at the same price as gardening (Meaning the profit/RL cost of gardening = gil/price). Think about this logic. If the effort is as minimal as you portrayed, then it shouldn't off-set players from taking up this activity. If money is the *only* factor in gardening, then only the people who buy gil would be gardeners. Illegal gil-buyers wouldn't join because if the only preventing factor were money, then why didn't they just garden? Price difference? Well SE is selling at the same gil/price as gardening, so there's no reason for them to change sources. Players that don't garden? Well if the effort is unnoticeable, and money is the only factor that prevents them from picking up gardening, then why would they start buying gil? The money factor doesn't change as soon as SE starts selling gil. They still make the same amount of money they did before SE put up this offer.

Now comes the question:

Can you say with absolute certainty that only the people who garden would buy gil if it were offered at the cost-to-gil ratio as gardening?

[shaddix]

I has 62 gardening mules bwahahahaha, I would expand also if I wasn't going to lose all my playtime in about 2 months.

[thomassmith]

Anyone that plays BST has to be a RMT cause no real player plays it.