Marwa el-Sherbini, "Headscarf Martyr"

[Kerberoz]

Good grief, a martyr is anyone killed as a result of thier beliefs especially religious beliefs. It's not limited to self inflicted sacrifice. I can't figure out why this so difficult for you to understand. Seriously, get with the program.

If that is the definition of a martyr, then being a martyr is nothing special.

Sorry, getting killed by a random crazy person does not make you a martyr. If she was killed by a police officer, or a soldier, or sentenced to death, she would be a martyr.

[Lee]

This thread really illustrates how defensive and unified the Muslim world is. Although it also implies that they know how to overreact. I don't understand why Egypt would be in a fury over this, it's not like the German government executed her or could have known the stabber was unstable.

The conspiracy thing that the OP was hinting on is really laughable. Do you honestly believe that all the people/security in court just stood there when she was getting stabbed to death thinking, "oh wait, it's a raghead let her get gutted a few times"?

If Europe was out to get the Muslim population they wouldn't be letting them in so generously.

Also, all of you would be surprised at how quickly you can combo-stab someone. If you have a small weapon and throw someone to the ground you can really hammer away quite quickly.

[hagun]

Sorry, getting killed by a random crazy person does not make you a martyr. If she was killed by a police officer, or a soldier, or sentenced to death, she would be a martyr.

Did you even read the article? There is a very specific why this woman was killed and it wasn't for arbitrary reasons. No, this wasn't some crazy person that randomly went out to kill someone. Again, did we read different articles?

[Faris]

keyword: cause/belief


if she was not wearing a scarf, which indicated her belief she wouldnt have got killed by him..you follow? hence, she died for her belief. she stood up for her belief in court, that was also a step towards her death, cus if she just shut her mouth and moved on, perhaps she would have lived, but she chose to stand up and not take his insults, and he reacted by killing her.

i cant believe we're debating on the meaning of martyr..

[Elvis]

Shouldn't the Muslim world be defensive and unified though? Just take a look around that region.

Polls on race/religion/ethnicity attitudes in the West are regularly conducted and the findings consistently prove that it's Arabs and Muslims who are being discriminated against more than other 'groups'.

As to your first comment, would you say the same for Jews?

In many European countries, Holocaust denial is illegal.

This just in from Britain:
BBC NEWS | UK | England | North Yorkshire | Pair jailed for web race crimes

Two men have been jailed after becoming the first in the UK to be convicted of inciting racial hatred via a foreign website.

Simon Sheppard, 51, of Selby in North Yorkshire, received four years and 10 months, and Stephen Whittle, 42, of Preston, two years and four months.

Now compare that to this comment by an insane Rabbi, Manis Friedman:

I don’t believe in western morality, i.e. don’t kill civilians or children, don’t destroy holy sites, don’t fight during holiday seasons, don’t bomb cemeteries, don’t shoot until they shoot first because it is immoral.

The only way to fight a moral war is the Jewish way: Destroy their holy sites. Kill men, women and children (and cattle).

The first Israeli prime minister who declares that he will follow the Old Testament will finally bring peace to the Middle East. First, the Arabs will stop using children as shields. Second, they will stop taking hostages knowing that we will not be intimidated. Third, with their holy sites destroyed, they will stop believing that G-d is on their side. Result: no civilian casualties, no children in the line of fire, no false sense of righteousness, in fact, no war.

Zero tolerance for stone throwing, for rockets, for kidnapping will mean that the state has achieved sovereignty. Living by Torah values will make us a light unto the nations who suffer defeat because of a disastrous morality of human invention.

Source: May/June 2009- Ask the Rabbis


After the Holocaust shooter incident, Mayor Bloomberg said there should be LIMITS to free speech (Holocaust denial).

"Hitler's Germany, they had freedom of speech and look what happened," Blumberg said. "Freedom of speech has to be controlled."

Source: Holocaust survivor: Museum shooter akin to suicide bomber - CNN.com

We do not have honest discussions on race and religion in the mainstream.

Some ethnic and religious groups have more 'political capital' than others.

And in any multi-cultural society (as Germany is now) you will run into these issues. All these different groups trying to coexist and the 'system' trying to accommodate them all within the threshold of what is politically acceptable at that particular time in history.

[Lee]

I said the defensive and unified thing as a compliment. Hence the mention of overreaction being their downfall.

[Elvis]

Did you even read the article? There is a very specific why this woman was killed and it wasn't for arbitrary reasons. No, this wasn't some crazy person that randomly went out to kill someone. Again, did we read different articles?

Kerberoz trivialized the killer and his motivations.

He cannot be dismissed as a 'random crazy' - however, unless you can say he is indicative of some mass anti-Arab/Muslim sentiment in Germany, you still have no argument.

And again, you do not grasp these definitions. A person can be a victim of a hate-crime and NOT be a martyr.

I said the defensive and unified thing as a compliment. Hence the mention of overreaction being their downfall.

My bad, understood.

[Tyr]

The conspiracy thing that the OP was hinting on is really laughable. Do you honestly believe that all the people/security in court just stood there when she was getting stabbed to death thinking, "oh wait, it's a raghead let her get gutted a few times"?

I could argue that your naivete, or perhaps a bias of yoru own, is not letting you allow for that possibility, whereas I'm moving solely based on different reports of the same incident. Obviously, neither of us were there to see what really happened, and the only thing we can work from are the reports on the issue.

I can completely allow for the possibility of the man sitting next to her in the courtroom, but not only is that absurd, it doesn't seem to be reasonable given the reports. Secondly, as was first told to me in the 'story,' the cops "killed her husband too!" I never made any such claim, only citing that her husband, who was shot, only points to the fact that the guards were in fact armed. Also, her husband is not dead.

Do you honestly believe that all the people/security rushed to stop the stabber, but all tripped on their laces simultaneously, and were unable to aid the woman they so desperately wanted to help?

Two can play that game. Unfortunately, I think playing that game, or discussing the defiition of 'martyr' detracts from the main point. I put "Headscarf Martyr" only to allude to the title being given to her by other media outlets, I'm not advocating it in any particular sense.

And saying "why doesn't the 'western' media report about this" - I mean, do you think there were many news reports in Egypt about Matthew Shepard?

What makes this different really? Until there's some actual evidence of a conspiracy or intentional inaction that the OP is strongly, strongly alluding to...

There's a difference, though, in the 'free press' of the United States, versus any of the press in the Middle East, which does not at all match the relative freedom of press in the US.

I don't believe there to be a conspiracy, such as "the man was allowed into the courtroom with a knife because the guards wanted him to kill her," but rather want to point out that there's too much foulplay going on. There are too many unreasonable actions (or inaction) without explanation, or sufficient explanation.

[Elvis]

I agree. This guy was able to stab the lady 18 times. How much time do you think that would take?

At what point did the husband intervene? At stab 2? Stab 7? Even if he didn't make it til stab 17, where the fuck were the security guards?

Why did they shoot the husband?

They mistook him for the perp but look, we're in a well-lighted courtroom - it's not noisy. You aren't sitting in the nose-bleed section at some stadium. You can hear and see clearly unless you WEREN'T (choice) paying attention.

So, the guy stabs her and the husband intervenes. What mechanism in your decision-making process made you shoot him first? Did you shoot him first? (Is that detail provided?)

Either way, it's all bad. The husband had to REACT to the stabbing to get shot himself. So it obviously happened after the fact that his wife was being attacked.

This was probably a matter of criminal stupidity.

[Klaatu]

Aside from articles saying she was stabbed 18 times and not even mentioning factual evidence to the fact, I'm reluctant to believe that it is the truth. Especially since both mention how low a media coverage this incident has received. Wouldn't surprise me if media took liberties to inflate the issue by exhagerating the facts. Husband's death was accidental, most likely due to him jumping in the line of fire.

If we're talking about islamaphobia, we should also address the issue of Al Jazeera airing happy Arab people burning flags and mock-ups of western leaders in a happy go round circles. I don't see many flag burnings done in Europe and/or Americas, at least ones that are covered by media.

[Faris]

If we're talking about islamaphobia, we should also address the issue of Al Jazeera airing happy Arab people burning flags and mock-ups of western leaders in a happy go round circles. I don't see many flag burnings done in Europe and/or Americas, at least ones that are covered by media.

in the west they draw provocative cartoons and stab pregnant women.


we just burn flags and chant, hehe.

[Klaatu]

and fly planes into buildings, amirite?

[Faris]

it was once only, cmooon.

Spoiler: show

i still dont think people living in mountains actually did that, but w/e

[Tyr]

Again, no need to sidetrack the conversation. If you're claiming that the media took liberties, exaggerated the story - very well, where is your evidence for that? If you can't substantiate your claims, it only looks as though you're feeding some bias.

I agree, there very well may be exaggeration to some extent, such as saying the husband was shot 'on purpose' as opposed to maybe what was a very likely situation of him being in the line of fire. I could see that either way, but I choose to side with him being in the line of fire, at least given the lack of additional details. However, generally, BBC & the Guardian are reputable sources of news (at least comparatively), and I don't think they're reporting a case that is too far from the reality of the matter.

The bottom line is, a pregnant woman was accusing an already once-guilty man of discriminatory comments, and she was killed in the courtroom by that same man. Being stabbed, 18-times, to death in a courtroom isn't some normal protocol in a court of law, especially one that there are armed guards.

[Vekta]

Again, no need to sidetrack the conversation. If you're claiming that the media took liberties, exaggerated the story - very well, where is your evidence for that? If you can't substantiate your claims, it only looks as though you're feeding some bias.

I agree, there very well may be exaggeration to some extent, such as saying the husband was shot 'on purpose' as opposed to maybe what was a very likely situation of him being in the line of fire. I could see that either way, but I choose to side with him being in the line of fire, at least given the lack of additional details. However, generally, BBC & the Guardian are reputable sources of news (at least comparatively), and I don't think they're reporting a case that is too far from the reality of the matter.

The bottom line is, a pregnant woman was accusing an already once-guilty man of discriminatory comments, and she was killed in the courtroom by that same man. Being stabbed, 18-times, to death in a courtroom isn't some normal protocol in a court of law, especially one that there are armed guards.

If by reputable you mean biased rubbish then yes your right. BBC = waste of tax payers money, Guardian isnt worth the paper its printed on.

If you believe this woman was a martyr your obviously a terrorist

Spoiler: show

j/k

[Vekta]

in the west they draw provocative cartoons and stab pregnant women.


we just burn flags and chant, hehe.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_gGaop-NUOO...n001+signs.jpg

I dont see many Western people doing things like that. Obviously if they did the first cry would be discrimination. Ultimately both sides are as bad as each other.

[archibaldcrane]

I'm not in favor of terrorists, but this woman wasn't an arab-rights crusader. She was, for all intensive purposes, a regular german (immigrant?) exerting her regular german rights in a german court of law. She wasn't the face of a "movement", she happened to be harassed and eventually murdered by one fucking crazy who was hung up on her ethnicity.

She's the victim of a hate-crime, and that's all. She wasn't a political activist - just a regular person doing regular person stuff.

She's no more a martyr than Matthew Shepard, sorry.

[Klaatu]

Again, no need to sidetrack the conversation. If you're claiming that the media took liberties, exaggerated the story - very well, where is your evidence for that? If you can't substantiate your claims, it only looks as though you're feeding some bias.

I'm not claiming anything. I am simply questioning the validity of article's claims.

[Mistress Stowastiq]

We can throw separate definitions from various dictionaries around for days but in truth, if a group of people have heartfelt and passionate convictions, belief that a person is a martyr, then in fact that person becomes a martyr. Martyrdom has a lot to do with the symbol that the person represents to others and how their death moves people emotionally. The person can become a symbol for the cause when they die as a result of being in the group that they represent to others. Like Matthew Shepard became a martyr when he was murdered (hate crime).

[Alleya]

in the west they draw provocative cartoons and stab pregnant women.


we just burn flags and chant, hehe.

It still amuses me that this is the prevailing perception when western countries are the ones holding vigils for women stoned to death in Saudi Arabia for being raped and whatnot.

Selective memory on both sides. It's just sad.