Marwa el-Sherbini, "Headscarf Martyr"

[Faris]

It still amuses me that this is the prevailing perception when western countries are the ones holding vigils for women stoned to death in Saudi Arabia for being raped and whatnot.

Selective memory on both sides. It's just sad.

oh you think the west cares about women in saudi arabia? and i love how you make it sound like women just randomly get picked and stoned in Saudi, loveeee it.

haha

[Elvis]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_gGaop-NUOO...n001+signs.jpg

I dont see many Western people doing things like that. Obviously if they did the first cry would be discrimination. Ultimately both sides are as bad as each other.

http://electronicintifada.net/artman...abenemy483.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_FKUpGU_Jbp...Arab+enemy.jpg

Graffiti in Occupied Palestine (and in some Arab/Jewish sectors in Israel):

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_FKUpGU_Jbp...nd+niggers.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_FKUpGU_Jbp...chambers+2.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_FKUpGU_Jbp...s+-+Hebron.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_FKUpGU_Jbp...kill+arabs.jpg

I remember when the Gaza incursion/massacre was happening - and the protests were in high-gear - there were several pro-Israel rallies with signs that read "Wipe Gaza off the map" (yes, the ironing).

I don't know why we're talking about this either - it's a very narrow comparison and essentially amounts to a tit-for-tat type of exchange (but I partook in it to prove a rhetorical point).

[Rhinox]

oh you think the west cares about women in saudi arabia? and i love how you make it sound like women just randomly get picked and stoned in Saudi, loveeee it.

haha

That preposterous what kind of savages does he think saudi's are?


Give them some credit. Besides Saudi's only stone women who happen to be on the same side of the street as men without the accompaniment of her husband.

[Faris]

That preposterous what kind of savages does he think saudi's are?


Give them some credit. Besides Saudi's only stone women who happen to be on the same side of the street as men without the accompaniment of her husband.

exactly, please try and explain that to ms. whitebox princess.


@Elvis: i'd like to also add, that those graffiti are being executed, we burn flags and put up banners and posters but not much is done afterwards..

[Klaatu]

exactly, please try and explain that to ms. white princess.

I think this is what you meant to say.

[Baha]

A lot of the outrage is also because the german media spent so little attention to it. If you compare it to Theo Van Gogh's murder in Holland (by a crazy muslim), it was plastered all over the news. Yeah he was a bigger name and certainly more controversial than a regular woman, but still.
I hadn't even heard anything about the actual stabbing, only the articles about the protests seemed to be in the papers. I don't really blame the muslims for thinking that it'd all have been different if a crazy muslim stabbed a white woman in court. :/

[Lee]

exactly, please try and explain that to ms. whitebox princess.


@Elvis: i'd like to also add, that those graffiti are being executed, we burn flags and put up banners and posters but not much is done afterwards..

It's pretty funny that you whooshed on Rhinox, and on top of that, couldn't even smell the obvious sarcasm in his post.

And where is Alleya wrong by saying that women get lashed/stoned for being raped? It's a commonly heard case in Saudi Arabia where a woman is alone and gets raped by 4 men and then she gets charged with adultery which subsequently leads to punishment.

I'm not advocating any change of order or a dislike for Sharia law since obviously they are comfortable with it in their country. However, don't try and be ignorant about it. Firas, you're not even trying to look at the faults of your own side.

[Faris]

trust me, i dont need alleya, you or a community full of atheists to tell me what my faults are. I'm very well aware of my faults; and everyday of my life I wake up trying to fix my life.

but yeah, you said one word that pretty much sums up the raping/stoning in saudi;

It's a commonly heard

trust me, we here in the middle east, a whole lot of shit about westerners..stuff that are really really evil....those types of people do exist in the world, where they spread shit around..

[Vekta]

Stoning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Obviously all lies.

Just like the stoning to death of a 13 year old girl who was gang raped obviously never happened.

Deny all you want.

[Elvis]

he's not denying it, he's just saying it's not as common as the clap

[Lee]

trust me, i dont need alleya, you or a community full of atheists to tell me what my faults are. I'm very well aware of my faults; and everyday of my life I wake up trying to fix my life.

but yeah, you said one word that pretty much sums up the raping/stoning in saudi;



trust me, we here in the middle east, a whole lot of shit about westerners..stuff that are really really evil....those types of people do exist in the world, where they spread shit around..

I think you misunderstood me when I said "the faults of your own side", I was just stating that you are really biased and refuse to even acknowledge the problems that the Arab world has. I was in no way talking about your personal life though, if you thought so.

I don't think it's fabricated stories either, considering the laws set in place allow for such things to happen. Again though, I want to make it clear that I don't advocate changing your laws if you're comfortable living under them.

[Cyn]

I'm not in favor of terrorists, but...

lol


Edit: slow

[Alleya]

trust me, we here in the middle east, a whole lot of shit about westerners..stuff that are really really evil....those types of people do exist in the world, where they spread shit around..

You seem to assume that I don't attack my own society for its wrongdoings.

Barbarism is barbarism no matter where it comes from. It's wrong for either side to assume a lot about the other. As a matter of fact, there are a lot more westerners who show solidarity with those who have injustice done on them in the arab world than westerners who want to nuke the Persian gulf. I happen to live in a society that does not actively filter those people. It actively filters people in the Arab world who speak out against wrongdoing in our culture or their own instead, but I am aware of that bias. You seem to buy into the inherent bias of your culture whole hog instead of acknowledging it, and that's what bothers people.

[Cyn]

Are you sure Alleya? I thought we were all secretly wanting the entire middle east to be turned into a sheet of glass so that we could stop being constantly pestered.

[Meat]

she's an hero

[Tyr]

Again though, I want to make it clear that I don't advocate changing your laws if you're comfortable living under them.

This very much bothers me. Mainly because "stoning" isn't some grounded Islamic or Sharia principle (unless you're among the Wahhabi camp), and given the assumption of most people (not just Westerners), namely in equating "The Arab World" and "Islam," it's a source of distress to see incidents of stoning, especially when the girl was a victim of rape. To say I facepalm when I hear of such idiocy would be a severe understatement.

You seem to assume that I don't attack my own society for its wrongdoings.

Barbarism is barbarism no matter where it comes from. It's wrong for either side to assume a lot about the other. As a matter of fact, there are a lot more westerners who show solidarity with those who have injustice done on them in the arab world than westerners who want to nuke the Persian gulf. I happen to live in a society that does not actively filter those people. It actively filters people in the Arab world who speak out against wrongdoing in our culture or their own instead, but I am aware of that bias. You seem to buy into the inherent bias of your culture whole hog instead of acknowledging it, and that's what bothers people.

Well said.


Has Germany issued any statements regarding the matter, or have any of the guards (more specifically) said anything? It seems to me, that part of the outrage in Egypt was from the lack of response, or delayed response, from Germany. Post 9/11, I've had many people say "well, if majority of Muslims don't side with the 9/11 attacks, why aren't you guys condemning it" to my face, and while my response is twofold, I'm of the belief that that type of rhetoric is not conducive to resolving the situation -- and I think that's exactly what's happening among Egyptian Muslims. The difference is, no government (at least officially) was behind the 9/11 attacks, therefore little strings were there, but in this case, it happened in a government institution. I just think these incidents, from either side, further pointless hatred and demonizing of one another. How bad of a devil the West or the Middle East is (perspective pending), just depends on how ignorant you are.



PS: my response to "why aren't you condemning 9/11 attacks is:
1) What they are doing is so violently against Islam, that to even call the perpetrators Muslim is in some way legitimizing the atrocity, which I refuse to do. But if I must play ball...
2) Of course I condemn the act -- unilaterally so.


EDIT: I in no way mean to make direct comparison between the magnitude of the 9/11 acts to the murder of el-Sherbini, the analogy was just to bring up the public perception of 'response from parties responsible' in the fallout of the events.

[Zoolander]

Every single guard in that court room should have been fired immediately and it should be under investigation to determine if they were criminally negligent or something to that effect. Like others said, there were too many completely unacceptable events in this whole thing.

As far as westerners and "Islamaphobia" or w/e the term is...everyone knows its absolutely true lol. Obviously most of it is outlandish ignorance on the part of some very stupid people, but it didn't exactly appear out of nowhere. The amount of conflict the middle east has experience over the centuries has a lot to do with this "racism." One thing that fascinates me is that it is kind of a new form of discrimination. I guess its mostly due to incredible ignorance and a lack of education, but people tend to group every person in the middle east as "Muslim," regardless of whether or not they actually are. Its also kind of funny to label everyone in the middle east as the same when in fact their differences (albeit rather small in some cases) are why they are at constant odds with each other.

I don't see why people are so up in arms about the lack of coverage in the western world. Its one person who was in no way famous being murdered. It happens everyday, its tragic of course and it was a shocking way to die, but I mean it is hardly relevant news to people in the U.S. We hear enough grim and horrendous news every day right here in our own nation and the wars we are fighting, there is little room for minuscule bad news involving no U.S. citizens from another country. Even then, obviously its been covered enough to the point where I'm hearing about it in the states.

[Guitarman]

No one coming to the aid of the woman is because of what's called the bystander effect.

Bystander effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Basically, the more people present when something is happening such as this, the less likely someone will interviene. It's not about what race who is.

Still very sickening though.

[Tyr]

The bystander effect is a social psychological phenomenon in which individuals are less likely to offer help in an emergency situation when other people are present. The probability of help is inversely proportional to the number of bystanders. In other words, the greater the number of bystanders, the less likely it is that any one of them will help.

bystander: a person present but not involved; chance spectator; onlooker.

The bystander effect taking place was already proposed and alluded to in page 1 of the thread, and I gave a response that perhaps was inadequate, but understand a few things:
1) The keyword is "bystander." What then is the point of a guard? It's a bystander effect, the psychological effect shouldn't be the same for someone whose duty is to protect people in the courtroom.
2) How many people do you think there were in the court? "The probability is inversely proportional to the number of bystanders," do you believe there to have been hundreds of people there?
3) How come the bystander effect didn't stop the guards from firing, albeit late, in the vicinity (or maybe at, again the details on how the husband was shot are fuzzy or nonexistant) of the husband?
4) Why did the husband even get up? Certainly, he's not a bystander in the tense used to explain the social phenomenon. Again, this refers to the term "bystander" and how it is inapplicable to use when discussing the role of the guards and the husband.

[Norellicus]

At least where the other civilians in the room are concerned, there are other things to account for their inaction as well - shock/trauma from the unexpected observation of the violence first hand, fear for ones' own safety (knives in particular are easy to turn on another victim once someone is in a blind rage), and expectation of the guards to handle the situation. It's not as cut and dry as it seems.