Want the public option for health care to pass? You can help!

[Maxxthepenguin]

Whether the employer increases wages or pays for health care his cost will be relatively the same, still enough to put him out of business. If he goes out of business his employee's will lose more than they'll gain by free health care.

And otherwise his EMPLOYEES DONT HAVE HEALTH CARE
Is that not a problem for you? Are you OK with people who clearly work for a living not having health care?

These so called jobs you speak of when healthcare is socialized will be run by the government, you really think that people will get the treatment they need rather than being looked at quickly to move on to the next person or being told the important surgery they need is on a 6-10 month wait? So everyone 'can' get health care, that doesn't mean it will be good health care, let's be real this new plan will be run by the government.

You complained about jobs from private insurance companies dying. I told you where they were going to go. Then you call them "so called jobs". Then you change the subject because you can't deal with the fact that I just showed you how it's not going to destroy the world like you think it will.
My family has had to deal with health insurance companies; they try to wrestle you out of getting treatment already. The government will probably be just as bad, just less expensive.

and there is a lot of work available, i'm not saying that there is a job for every person out there and that it pays 80k a year. But there is work, people are just to proud to do 'any' job even if it means paying the bills or working 2 jobs.

Working 2 jobs = less jobs for other people. On a large scale, this can be problematic. Plus, it requires that you find two jobs lol. And, once again, you seem to be OK with jobs not giving health care.
And wtf at the bold. How can you say there is a lot of work available but not enough for everyone. That's pretty fucked up man

You can say what you want about me cause you don't know any more about me than you know about anyone else or the business' that i'm talking about or the people employed by them.

This might sound good in theory but in practice it will do more damage than good because of what will need to be sacrificed to get it.

SOCIALISM OMG
That's what's going through your head: a completely inaccurate scare word. Learn what socialism is before you use it.

[Stiker]

But i'm against this bill if it's what i think it is. giving coverage to your employee's is not cheap, especially for small business owners. They don't drive around in porches and mercedes and generally even if you have a 3-6 employee business the cost of providing health care is in the 10's of thousands. that is more than enough to cause most of these business' to go out of business simply because the only fix would be to increase their prices which in this economy is the short road to going under.

Re-read your own words that I put in bold. Something is seriously, SERIOUSLY fucked up when a small business owner...hell ANY business owner has to take a look at their bottom line and realize they can't afford to pay it for the benefit of their employees.

Keep in mind those costs are continuing to rise. Health care providers continue to rake in profits while the rest of us take it up the ass, and then the uninsured have to take it doubly hard when they can't afford what is a basic need.

Look at it this way, say you just "got a damn job", but your employer said that, due to increasing health care costs, they don't offer coverage as a benefit. But hey, you need the cash because you gotta put food on the table for your family of 4. You look for options like COBRA, but, unfortunately for you, the pay check from your "damn job" can't afford it and the rest of your bills and needs.

Then your 5 year old child, who can't get a "damn job" himself, becomes severely ill and needs treatment beyond what a local clinic can offer. Now you are up shit-creek without a paddle because you can't afford to get any type of medical insurance nor pay the medical bills that would be charged to you because you are uninsured.

Then you gotta hear a whole group of people spout off and say it is your fault for not getting a "damn job".

What a great system.

Oh, and I didn't even bother to give an example of when you are medically insured and they decide to deny your claims for no good reason either.

But hey, God Bless America and damn that commie bastard Obama right?

[Jeryhn]

and there is a lot of work available, i'm not saying that there is a job for every person out there and that it pays 80k a year. But there is work, people are just to proud to do 'any' job even if it means paying the bills or working 2 jobs.

I work two jobs, but my money goes towards rent, bills and my schooling (so that, maybe, I can get a decent enough job one day). Why don't I have health insurance then...? Oh yeah, because the people I work for don't offer health insurance anyway.

You talk a lot of shit about people not willing to work certain jobs, when the unfortunate aspect concerning those jobs is that health insurance isn't offered by the employers who handle those jobs beyond the state-mandated employer contribution into worker's compensation, which only applies if a worker is injured or becomes sick somehow while they are on the job, or through their job. Even though I'm willing to work a job or two that I fully acknowledge as beneath me and my particular skillset, I still can't afford health insurance. Circular argument much?

[bolkin]

Basically, there is large support among Americans for having a public option in healthcare- not a single-payer universal system like Canada, but just a government insurance option. We've got more uninsured than you have citizens, and our insurance industry is pretty damn despicable- denying procedures and coverage to people who they feel are too costly to their profits, running smear campaigns, and buying a lot of political capital via contributions.

If 76% of Americans want the gov't option, you'd have to figure that almost everyone who votes Democrat would be in favor of it. Yet, we have several prominent and influential Democratic congressmen/senators who have taken a stance against it, which threatens the current proposals from passing- ignoring the wishes of their constituents. On top of that, those same senators and congressmen are among the top recipients of contributions from the health industry.

this particular PAC/commerical-donate-thingy serves to publicly call those people out and pressure them to listen to their constituents rather than health industry execs when it comes to implementing a public insurance option. donation money goes toward airing commercials in the localities of the senators/congressmen in question.

Good job explaining this Beckwin.

[Olo401]

lol only two bills too late.

Sorry that's factually incorrect. Whose influence on the stimulus/works bill had its cost reduced from almost a Trillion dollars to under $790 billion? Senate Republicans. Then they ALL voted against it because it wasn't their idea and wanted to gamble that it wouldn't work and plan to use it as a campaign issue in 2010.

We've still got a while before the full impact is realized, but personally I'm of the belief that because it was scaled back the effects won't be as.. stimulating.. as they would be if it was actually just rammed through. And they'll have their pet issue because they soured the milk.

[tyven]

ok people need to chill out with the small business shit. i BELIEVE businesses with less than 25 employees will be exempt from the penalties of not providing insurance. im not 100% on the numbers because im not at work and dont have all the shit in front of me. but trust me, small business is not getting shit on by the plan, really no one is except the agents, who are now protected by the orrin amendment

[Kuya]

I cannot believe that one has to argue tooth and nail against the dumbest arguments possible for something as meager as a public option with all the concessions it will probably have. This shit is fucking stupid.

[Beckwin]

I cannot believe that one has to argue tooth and nail against the dumbest arguments possible for something as meager as a public option with all the concessions it will probably have. This shit is fucking stupid.

seriously. we're still gonna have about the tamest, least market-intrusive program of any developed nation.

[Skyylya]

Just because more people have insurance does not mean that you're going to automatically recieve coverage, let alone good coverage. Welcome to waiting a long ass time for a serious procedure because there are thousands of other people with routine and unimportant procedures who think they are entitled to something just because they now have government issued insurance benefits for free. Every little sniffle, bruise, sprain and otherwise unimportant injury that can be cured by a little backbone is now going to be sitting in the ER wasting peoples time who really need treatment.

Is it a shame that some people aren't covered, sure i'm one of them. But i'm not going to sit here and feel entitled to something just 'because it should be a basic human right'. it's not free, it's expensive, the cost of forcing people to provide health coverage when they can't will force them out of business, it will happen.

The very employees they are trying to get coverage for will be able to try and find it at an employer who can afford it and not the one they got laid off from because that company now has to free up the funds to afford it.

You're just as naive as you think i am ignorant if you think this bill will just 'fix' everything.

*as i prefaced my first post with anyway, i'm not sure if this particular bill is the one i was thinking of. I don't have time to read 8 pages since i'm out working without health insurance, but the bill i was thinking of was going to be forcing every business to provide health coverage. If all this bill is supposed to do is add another option then it's all moot anyway. My thoughts stand they are just irrelevant.

[Kuya]

Read the entire thread and then post, if not, go away.

[guartz]

My soul is crying right now.

[Beckwin]

seriously, read shit. our government already spends more per capita because of the flaws and inefficiencies of the current market-dominated system. and contrary to popular conservatroll belief, healthcare is not an overwhelmingly long, substandard experience in Canada/Britain/France/Germany/Japan/Italy/Cuba/etc.

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

We don't have a market dominated system.

[Maxxthepenguin]

We don't have a market dominated system.

Please write a complete paragraph entailing exactly what you mean, because it can easily be justified that it is or isn't a market dominated system. Being vague has nothing to do with being correct.

[Beckwin]

the government does not provide near the majority of health insurance in this country. the market provides the majority of it; hence the system is market dominated. private industry runs healthcare in America.

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

So now, everyone expects doctors to be free. People who pay $200 for a haircut are indignant if it costs more than a $20 co-pay to see a doctor.
The government also "helped" us by mandating that insurance companies cover all sorts of medical services, both ordinary – which you ought to pay for yourself – and exotic, such as shrinks, in vitro fertilization and child-development assessments – which no normal person would voluntarily pay to insure against.

This would be like requiring all car insurance to cover the cost of gasoline, oil and tire changes – as well as professional car detailing, iPod docks, leather seats and those neon chaser lights I have all along the underbody of my chopped, lowrider '57 Chevy.

That doesn't sound like the free-market to me. And tax deductible employer based coverage kinda eliminates competition. Just because the government doesn't provide it doesn't mean it's a "free-market".

[Beckwin]

those "exotic" things should be covered but at a relatively low cost, because they are so infrequent. however they are serious and can strike anyone, so they ought to be covered nonetheless.

heaven forbid the government say "if you're gonna charge that much, you better cover more than bruises and breaks"

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

those "exotic" things should be covered but at a relatively low cost, because they are so infrequent. however they are serious and can strike anyone, so they ought to be covered nonetheless.

heaven forbid the government say "if you're gonna charge that much, you better cover more than bruises and breaks"

Uh, the government didn't say "if you're gonna charge that much, you better cover more than bruises and breaks", the government said "these lobbyists gave us all this money, so were gonna make you cover more than bruises and breaks regardless of whether it makes costs go up or not". I mean, if car insurer's were forced to cover things like oil changes don't you think costs would go up?

[Beckwin]

you're comparing psychiatric treatment to oil changes.

the point is you cannot treat your life/well-being like material investments. You don't just not get kidney insurance like you don't get full-coverage insurance for a second car just because it's no big deal if you lose it. you don't just say "fuck mental health insurance" like you can with say, flood insurance on a home in Arizona, just because you feel the likelihood is really low that it wouldn't be a good investment.

the door is that way ->

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

you're comparing psychiatric treatment to oil changes.

the point is you cannot treat your life/well-being like material investments. You don't just not get kidney insurance like you don't get full-coverage insurance for a second car just because it's no big deal if you lose it. you don't just say "fuck mental health insurance" like you can with say, flood insurance on a home in Arizona, just because you feel the likelihood is really low that it wouldn't be a good investment.

the door is that way ->

I used a bad analogy. I meant to compare things like acupuncture, wigs, etc to getting a lift on a jeep or something, not unlikely catastrophic events. I'm not trying to convince you this is a bad idea, that won't happen, just that this is not the free-markets fault.