Question regarding Multi-hit Weapon Skills (i.e. Asuran Fists) & Double Attack Job/Equip Trait

[Havok]

additional hits on a WS give base 1 TP, but store TP affects that as well. That's why people think their TP return is showing 8 hit pentas, 6 hit raging rushes, etc.

At least that's the mistake I made before.

[Anomander]

additional hits on a WS give base 1 TP, but store TP affects that as well. That's why people think their TP return is showing 8 hit pentas, 6 hit raging rushes, etc.

At least that's the mistake I made before.

Correct, when I double attack on sam I get 2 more TP rather than 1.

[Darlantan]

Indeed, tp values as most (all?) numbers in ffxi calculations get rounded down, so depending on your Store TP and weapon delay, those decimals add up and for example going from 1 DA to 2 DA might jump straight to next rounded number, making for example those 2 DA pentas seem like they are 3 DA.

4 Double Attacks on Drakesbane for a total of 8 hits, on the other hand, shouldnt happen because of the decimals being rounded down, and here's me willing to eat my words if someone does some extensive testing and proofs the 2 DA limit per WS wrong. I also dont understand why they would limit it to 2, and wouldnt be surprised the reason for most people thinking they cap at 2 DAs is because of the low chance of it happening, and players not paying attention or thinking its something else, when they actually take place.

[Cream Soda]

As far as I understand it, misses counting toward the 8 or not has not been proven. Proving whether it does or does not count would require a lot of testing with a high DA rate and seeing the amount of accuracy increased from 95% Cap. Which is very difficult because you would need to get your standard deviation much lower than the remaining 5% between 95 and 100.

Maximum number of DA would logically be 2x the number of hits the WS can do. Jin being a 3 hit WS it can only go to 6 hits. Dual wield can potentially increase it to 8 maybe.

I have hit 8 hits with drakesbane before. The information about max DA on WS being 2 extra hits from the Wiki is incorrect.

Grab a kraken/ridill, kraken/mkris kraken/octave. Eat a blind potion. go tell me if you get more than 8 swings ever

[Gergall]

Please correct me if I am mistaken but Saber Dance + Dancing Edge (or Evis) makes it incredibly obvious that you will never double attack more than twice on a WS.

Edit: Thank you Raen Ryong, you would actually want to test with Pyrrhic Kleos (4-hit WS) if you wanted to confirm this fact.

Considering the crazy double attack rate that Saber Dance gives when first used, not much testing is needed.

Edit: This thread is about whether you can double attack repeatedly until those hits land? That's virtually impossible to show. "Yeah I just did a 9 hit Hexastrike, only 6 landed but I swear there were 9 swings in there."

As far as I understand it, misses counting toward the 8 or not has not been proven. Proving whether it does or does not count would require a lot of testing with a high DA rate and seeing the amount of accuracy increased from 95% Cap. Which is very difficult because you would need to get your standard deviation much lower than the remaining 5% between 95 and 100.

I think this makes sense. Certainly WSes cap at 8 hits landed, but how are you possibly going to prove that you didn't whiff a few extra times?

The best way to prove this would be to do MNK/WAR Asuran over and over on the same even match mob. Then switch to another sub and get your dex and acc exactly the same and test again. If the MNK/WAR manages to land all 8 hits more often, it implies that he was whiffing but then procing double attack because the whiffs don't count towards the 8 cap limit.

The amount of testing would have to be tremendous.

[Raen Ryong]

Please correct me if I am mistaken but Saber Dance + Dancing Edge (or Evis) makes it incredibly obvious that you will never double attack more than twice on a WS.

If you're dualwielding, DE = 5 hits + 1 offhand + 2 DAs = 8 hit limit

[fantasticdan]

Grab a kraken/ridill, kraken/mkris kraken/octave. Eat a blind potion. go tell me if you get more than 8 swings ever

Melee rounds and WS don't necessarily have the exact same rules regarding this, but thou they probably do.

[Cream Soda]

Melee rounds and WS don't necessarily have the exact same rules regarding this, but thou they probably do.

Yea, but we KNOW the cap is 8 hits on both because of asuran. There is no reason or valid assumption that missing doesn't let you go past that 8 hit cap on melee, but would let you for ws.

[Argettio]

Indeed, tp values as most (all?) numbers in ffxi calculations get rounded down, so depending on your Store TP and weapon delay, those decimals add up and for example going from 1 DA to 2 DA might jump straight to next rounded number, making for example those 2 DA pentas seem like they are 3 DA.

This

Worked example:
SAM with full sTP merits + Rajas + brutal + askar body = 46sTP.
Hagun's base return is 11.5
Modified TP return is 16.7 (truncated from 16.79)
16.7*6 = 100.2 TP (true 6 hit build).

But they TP bar will show during the TP phase:
16->33->50->66->83->100 (note the apparent TP return per hit is 17 on all hits after the first)

Now a Weaponskill should return 16.7 TP. The 'expected' number for a DA would be 17.7. But due to the 46 sTP the DA will give 1.4TP (truncated).
16.7 + 1.4 = 18.1

So as far as the SAM can see he went from 16 TP on a normal hit to 18 on a DA.

Now as SAM WS are single hit no one argue that it DA-ed twice, but I used this as an example as some one asked me about this situation the other day.

With WS like penta, drakes etc with a large number of swings and the amount of sTP needed to make a 6hit polearm it could easily look like a lot more hits than it actually is.

BTW I am not saying you can't DA every hit, just that you need to be careful when stating you have DA-ed every hit.

This could be tested with one of the mythic weapons, they give a predicable (and very large) DA rate, combine this with some other DA gear you can get to ~50%. Which should cut down the number of WS needed to test this.

[Masamune]

i have a question regarding the 8-hits cap on multi-hits WSs :

If you are dualwielding and having some DA and/or TA (from either gears/traits), a multihits ws like rampage/de/evisc/hexa strike/bladeKu (which are 5+ but less than 8 hits WSs), should potentially get to the 8-hits cap.
(not sure for H2H ones like stringing pummels/ragingFists)

BUT :

When these WSs reach the 8 cap, how to know which get "capped" 1st : the DA/TA trait or the offhand hit in the end of WS ?

Example with whm/nin dualwielding clubs, Brutal ear, Hexa strike :
6-hits + 1 DA on 1st hit + 1 DA on one of remaining 5 hits + 1hit from offhanded club = 9hits. -> Since a WS is capped @ 8hits, which get "erased" : one the 2 DAs or the offhand hit ?

Also, how to test this ?

[Plow]

Also, how to test this ?

Blade: Ku with a Kunai offhand, should be able to figure out after some pretty extensive testing if it's possible to push that extremely low dmg offhand hit off the table.

[Masamune]

Nice idea Plow, but prob is a NIN with BladeKu can't reach more than 8hits (5hits +2xDAs +1offhand=8 ) and parser dmg table only shows total dmg dealt by each WS so how could we detect the Kunai dmg compared to a WS with missed hits (for example) ?

A thf/nin with evisc and its TA + offhand could reach theoritically 10hits (5+4from2xTA+1offhand) but still doesnot know which from one of his TAs or its offhanded hits will be erased by the 8hits cap ?

[AoshiZ]

Yea, but we KNOW the cap is 8 hits on both because of asuran. There is no reason or valid assumption that missing doesn't let you go past that 8 hit cap on melee, but would let you for ws.

There is no argument that the cap is 8 hits. The argument is whether misses count towards the cap of 8 with Double attack potentially kicking in on WS. Your test is poor because you rely on kraken club which is a proc which may function completely differently. Furthermore, double attack cannot proc in conjunction with a kraken club proc.

Addition: Your test also plays a factor with regular swings which is not a WS. To compare regular multi hit proc to WS's with DA is comparing apples and oranges in that the two already have vast differences in mechanics.

[AoshiZ]

additional hits on a WS give base 1 TP, but store TP affects that as well. That's why people think their TP return is showing 8 hit pentas, 6 hit raging rushes, etc.

At least that's the mistake I made before.

This is a good point. However, it is easy to verify in that under the same circumstances the TP return will always be the same. If your tp return has 3 different return TP states (excluding the fact of being hit), then it is easy to verify that each state was for a different number of swings. Example: Penta thrust with 6, 7, and 8 hits

[Gergall]

Part of what you are saying makes sense - when Asuran Fists lands for 8 hits, we have no way of knowing whether it might (as you suggest) have actually been 9 swings with 1 miss and 8 hits.

In my other post I gave an example of how you might be able to reach a conclusion after many, many, many hours of testing. Basically it amounts to "Does a MNK/WAR hit the 8-hit cap more frequently than a MNK/other? If so, it's because his misses are being covered up by double attack procs."


I assume this was a typo:

Example: Penta thrust with 6, 7, and 8 hits

[Casey_]

I remember getting 8 hit pentas long before I had a single bit of store TP /WAR back before /SAM was an acceptable subjob {ie pre ToAU/CoP, but after TP nerf}, but honestly I could be wrong. I obviously have no evidence to back it up, for all I know I got 1 DA + a monster hit me and made it LOOK like it hit 8 times.

I do remember thinking it was nigh impossible to get 8, but 7 was a lot easier.

grain of salt etc.

[Thorny]

if you mainhand kraken and hit 8 times, your offhand doesn't swing
if you mainhand kraken and miss 8 times, your offhand doesn't swing
asuran can't DA, presumably because WS also have a cap of 8 hits
assuming they have the same cap but different rules regarding missing is pretty assenine and groundless

[Gergall]

if you mainhand kraken and hit 8 times, your offhand doesn't swing
if you mainhand kraken and miss 8 times, your offhand doesn't swing
asuran can't DA, presumably because WS also have a cap of 8 hits
assuming they have the same cap but different rules regarding missing is pretty assenine and groundless

I am certainly not assuming that they have different rules. I think it is incredibly unlikely that WSes have different rules regarding misses. However, I do recognize that there is no way to test and confirm without tremendous time investment.

I remember getting 8 hit pentas long before I had a single bit of store TP /WAR back before /SAM was an acceptable subjob {ie pre ToAU/CoP, but after TP nerf}, but honestly I could be wrong. I obviously have no evidence to back it up, for all I know I got 1 DA + a monster hit me and made it LOOK like it hit 8 times.

I do remember thinking it was nigh impossible to get 8, but 7 was a lot easier.

grain of salt etc.

As previously stated, Saber Dance + Pyrrhic Kleos makes it clear that you can only double attack twice. The very high proc rate on Saber Dance allows you to observe this without doing 1000 samples.

[AoshiZ]

if you mainhand kraken and hit 8 times, your offhand doesn't swing
if you mainhand kraken and miss 8 times, your offhand doesn't swing
asuran can't DA, presumably because WS also have a cap of 8 hits
assuming they have the same cap but different rules regarding missing is pretty assenine and groundless

WS's are different than regular swings. Lets consider the fact that you cannot proc kraken on WS hits. Lets consider the fact that the first hit of the WS is the only hit that is impacted by FTP multiplier. Let us consider the fact that multi hit WS's only gain one extra hit from dual wield. Let us consider the fact that tp gain by mobs from consecutive hits not longer generate the same amount of TP for mobs as the initial hit. Let us consider the fact that double attack can go into affect more than once on the same hand per attack round of the weapon skill (two handed weapons).

I believe it is asinine for the assumption that some rules should follow a given convention and the rest do not (given that there are already so many differences with a regular attack round and a WS).

As far as I am concerned, I have yet to see someone perform empirical studies to show that double attack does not potentially increase the accuracy. So i will not go out of my way to deny a claim i know nothing about.

Here is a perfectly plausible example of how it could have potentially been programmed. Each hit is calculated independantly. Until a total number of 8 hits have been reached. This could allow for the each hit to calculate its DA chance. This is just a stupid example of one of the many different ways it could have been programmed and shouldn't be taken seriously. Just don't go out of your way to deny something based on the fact that the system doesn't make logical sense in your head.