Power Regulation / Surge / Battery Backup help+input

[Roranora]

Okay so, a typical midwest thunderstorm last weekend knocked out power while I was 360'ing. I have everything plugged into basic surge strips, nothing too fancy save a little mini battery backup CyberPower unit for my desktop (formerly to save me from instant FFXI exits >.>). I normally try to get all of my electronics unplugged during a storm, or at the very least, have them off. However, timing would have it such that I was playing during this storm. The power went out, then returned, then continued to flicker on and off about 4-5 times never staying on longer than a few seconds. This all happened as I was getting up to go unplug the power strips, pissed I just bailed on 2 teammates in an intense 3v3. When I walked around, I saw my 360 had RRoD'd from this rapid on/off unpleasantness. I turned it off, unplugged everything, and went to bed.

My 360 proceeded to work fine for about a day (another 6 hours of gaming or so) before making a really odd (and kinda loud) click, and then slightly messing up its image it displayed. This part was really fucking weird; I could see like groups of tall, slim rectangles all across the 360's image, both in-game and the NXE, but not the Dashboard menus; also, there was a weird red hue overlaying everything too; the color was slightly off. Otherwise, computationally, the 360 seemed fine still; I actually finished playing a game with this horribly annoying image issue. Then I turned it off one more time, only to turn it back on to E-74. Now, I'm 90% convinced my 360 died from being turned on and off that quickly that many times during said storm. Nothing else was damaged, but nothing else was turned on at the time other than my TV, modem, router, all of which were in other power strips. I had other consoles plugged in the same strip as the now-defunct 360, but they were off/standby and all seem fine.

What do I need between my consoles and the wall outlets to prevent future similiar unfortunate events? I just bought a APC battery backup surge unit (it's charging its battery right now, Back-UPS XS 1500, for anyone familiar) and I plan to add those in-wall/on-wall surge protectors on all of my outlets, even the one in which I will plug this APC UPS. Should this be sufficient? What do you guys do to protect your electronics? If I like this unit's performance, I'm thinking surge+battery backup for all my stuff, TVs, PCs, receivers, etc. They're kinda pricy but they're cheaper than replacing just one next-gen (can we say current gen yet?) console.


tldr; I have toys and I don't want Kansas killing anymore of them. wut do

[bungiefan]

Surge protectors only protect against over voltage, not brownouts and blackouts. Those battery backups will protect against brownouts and blackouts, giving you a few minutes to shut things off properly. Just note that not all of the ports stay on when running on battery, and you need to track the wattage being loaded onto each one so you don't overload them. Otherwise, that's the best solution for an area with unstable power like that.

[westom]

What do I need between my consoles and the wall outlets to prevent future similiar unfortunate events? I just bought a APC battery backup surge unit (it's charging its battery right now, Back-UPS XS 1500, for anyone familiar) and I plan to add those in-wall/on-wall surge protectors on all of my outlets, even the one in which I will plug this APC UPS. Should this be sufficient?

Did you read manufacturer numeric specs? Neither the UPS nor power strip claim to provide that protection. Many just know it must work because 'surge protector' sounds so much like 'surge protection'. The same reasoning that proved Saddam's WMDs also has convinced a majority that it must do something.

Brownouts and blackouts do not harm hardware. UPS has one function - to protect from data loss.

Your telco disconnects phone service to protect their computers with each storm. Their computers are connected to overhead wires all over town. So they disconnect? Of course not. Disconnecting was never effective protection – as you have proved.

Telcos also do not use that power strip or UPS solution. Protection starts by answering a simple question. What does the surge seek? Most people will wait for an answer when they want to be told how to think. But the few who know that UPS and power strip is ineffective asked simple questions: what does a surge seek?

Why does Franklin's lightning rod work? Yes, need you to know if you are thinking or blindly believe scams. The surge took a conductive connection to earth via a wooden church steeple. Conductive, but not conductive enough. Franklin simply gave lightning at path to earth that was more conductive. That is what all effective surge protection does. Will a magic box between wall outlet and electronics stop what even a 70 foot wooden steeple could not stop? Your solution is exactly what Franklin did. Intercept and earth a surge before it enters the building. A surge that enters a building (even on AC electric) will hunt for earth ground destructively through household appliances.

What does your telco do? Every wire in every cable first connects as short as possible to single point earth ground. A surge earthed before entering a building does not dissipate energy destructively inside the building.

Neither that UPS nor power strip stops or absorbs surges. Will that silly 2 centimeter part stop what three miles of sky could not? Others here say yes. That is what a UPS and power strip must do.

Telco uses a 'whole house' protector connected to what provides protection - earth ground. Surge energy must be dissipated harmlessly in earth. Telco’s solution is your only effective solution.

Responsible companies sell a 'whole house' protector for the breaker box: GE, Siemens, Intermatic, Leviton, Square D, Keison, Polyphaser, etc. The Cutler-Hammer 'whole house' protectors sells in Lowes for less than $50. You can spend $thousands on plug-in protectors that have no earthing and claim no protection in specs. OR properly earth one 'whole house' protector for about $1 per protected appliance – just like your telco. Do their solution: one 'whole house' protector and earthing upgraded to meet and exceed post 1990 National Electrical Code.

Install one 'whole house' protector so that nobody knows a surge even existed. A 'whole house' protector even earths a direct lightning strike and is not damaged. Damage to ineffective and obscenely overpriced plug-in protectors gets the naive to recommend that garbage. Effective protection means you did not even know a direct lightning strike existed. How does that telco switching computer suffer about 100 surges with each thunderstorm without damage? Why has that been the solution for over 100 years? Did you answer the first question correctly (or at least willing to make a mistake when answering it)? Did you know what makes a surge destructive to electronics? Destructive surges seek earth ground.

What provides protection? It was stated earlier. Protector only connects to protection - earth ground. Your protection is only as effective as that single point earth ground. That means a 'less than 10 foot' connection from each protector to earth. A bare copper quarter inch ground wire must be short, no sharp bends, separated from other non-ground wires, no splices, not inside metallic conduit ... If the ground wire goes up over the foundation and down to earth, then it is too long, too many sharp bends, and not separated from other wires. Ground wire must go through the foundation and down. Otherswise even the ‘whole house’ protector will not be as effective.

See those parameters – short, no sharp bends, separated … Those requirements are why no UPS or power strip has earthing.

All other protectors must also make that same 'less than 10 foot' connection to a single point earth ground. A surge protector installed (for free) by the telco on every house (see the NID box) must also make a short connection to the same ground. Why do telcos install a 'whole house' protector on every subscriber line for free? It is so effective and so inexpensive. But it is only as good as the earthing you have provided.

Cable Tv has no protector. Instead, a direct wire connection (short as possible) connects cable to the same earthing electrode. No protector required to earth a cable surge. Wire does it.

Most have been confused into worshipping the magic box protector - as if that will stop and absorb what three miles of sky could not. View numeric specs for that APC UPS. Where does it list each type of surge and list numbers for that protection? It does not.

Well it does have a few hundred joules. Will a few hundred joules absorb a surge that is hundreds of thousands of joules? Others say yes when they recite what they are told to believe. Fewer and informed say scam. It has a few hundred joules - near zero. But near zero is enough to put the words "Surge protection" on a sales brochure. The naive read that subjective claim to become "experts"? Then recommend that UPS and power strip.

Get a 'whole house' protector. Upgrade earthing to meet and exceed post 1990 National Electrical Code requirements. Do no changes to interior household wiring. An effective solution routinely used in munitions dumps and commercial broadcast stations is performed with a protector that costs about $1 per protected appliance. A surge protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Then you don't waste time always disconnecting stuff.

[Mafai]

Wow... anyway. I am interested in some info about power regulation and ups's as well...

Oddly I have gone through about 3 power supplys (on just 1 PC) in the past 6-7 months, and I believe another is on the way out now.

Recently after thinking about it, I have replaced at least 1 power supply on every pc in my house (not cheap supplies either), so i am looking for a solution, or someone to say what is causing this problem. My lights do not flicker / my power almost never goes out.

I am hoping to grab a UPS and unfortunately a new power supply to hopefully filter out whatever my problem is causing these supplies to die... is this gonna fix my problem(s), and will the UPS end up dying like my power supplies have been?

[Roranora]

First of all, thanks for the replies. I don't claim to know this stuff well, thus the topic. And I don't think any surge actually did any damage in this specific case, nor am I delusional about what any products purchased might or might not do. However, it's been hard on consoles, or really any appliance, to rapidly turn it on and off, which wouldn't happen with sufficient battery backup, no?

I just figured surge issues were a closely related topic to my specific problem here, so I included mentioning them. I have the strips for really nothing more than extra outlets. Let's worry less about the extent of their protection. I know when anything is plugged in, regardless of what's around, that there is risk involved. I also know the sheer magnitude of potential surges can ruin any simple appliance I bought with or without $10 power strips. This UPS is pricy cause it's got a gnarly battery in it; I sprung for that for the reasons in the above paragraph.

As for overloading, I bought the highest wattage UPS I could find. I don't see a modem, router, single console (at a time), and a 40" LCD TV exceeding its 865 watts, but maybe I'm way off here?

The box explicitly approximates 18 minutes of backup to a console gaming setup. (Approximated at 335 watts: 42" LCD TV plus a 360 -or- PS3)

It also approximates 27 minutes of backup to a gaming PC. (240 watts: PC + 24" LCD monitor + externally powered speakers + modem + router)

Again, I'm no expert, but it seems like I will be able to keep my consoles on when/if I'm ever on them when Kansas strikes again.

As for 'whole house' protection, thanks westom; I will have to look into this when I'm not here in an apartment. I can follow your entire explanation, and I see how that dwarfs just buying tons of surge protection throughout a house. But even with quality 'whole house' earth grounding, there is still the risk of rapid on/off (without backup power) if the power is flickering? Anyway, you popped your BG posting cherry to impart much electrical knowledge my way. I am grateful.

[westom]

I have the strips for really nothing more than extra outlets. Let's worry less about the extent of their protection. I know when anything is plugged in, regardless of what's around, that there is risk involved.

If you need a $4 power strip, then why pay $15 or $25 for these power strips? (this system wants you to work to see this
Triple w dot, hanford dot gov slash rl/?page=556&parent=554
Triple w dot, westwhitelandfire dotcom slash Articles/Surge%20Protectors.pdf
Triple w dot, cw56 dot com slash news/articles/local/BO63312/
Triple w dot, pennsburgfireco dot com slash fullstory.php?58339

Scary pictures should give you pause. More money for a bigger risk?

Another reason why the 'whole house' protector is so important - those scary pictures.

Power strip should have one important feature - a 15 amp circuit breaker.

[westom]

Oddly I have gone through about 3 power supplys (on just 1 PC) in the past 6-7 months, and I believe another is on the way out now.

Computer power supplies were required even by Intel (and other standards) to be some of the most robust devices inside a building. If replacing so many power supplies, well, read consumer magazine reports. They created trivial problems. Most techs could not fix the problem. A too common solution - automatically replace the power supply.

How much was the supply? Minimally acceptable supplies start at $60 retail. Higher price does not mean better. But a price too low suggests defective.

How to increase profits? Forget some essential functions and sell it at a lower price. Supplies that do not meet even government standards are often dumped in a market where so many computer assemblers do not know how electricity works. Are supplies failing? Or do you have a tech problem?

Does the supply come with a long list of numeric specs? Another way to dump inferior supplies into a market. Then the few who actually know this stuff cannot identify supplies that are missing essential functions. No long list of numeric specs not provided should raise eyebrows even when you have no idea what those numbers mean.

Many UPSes are so 'dirty' as to be destructive to small electric motors and power strip protectors. These computer grade UPSes are completely acceptable to every computer because computer power supplies are supposed to be so robust.

If you are having power supply failures, then why are you not replacing clock radios, dimmer switches, smoke detectors, and bathroom GFCIs regularly?

[cdgreg]

I just came here to post a similar topic and noticed this. I don't mean to hijack your thread, and I've read the replies here and they're quite disheartening if I'm understanding them correctly.

Until this past weekend I'd always been under the impression that thunderstorms frying electronics was sort of a thing of the past, or it won't happen to me syndrome. While at my fiance's parents house for the weekend there was a huge storm that fried their PC/telephone/one lamp.

I don't know anything about circuits or power, but I do know it only fried some items on their walmart power strip, and it was only in one section of the house. Anyways, it really worried me, because I realized if my PC fried I'd be utterly screwed. I was coming to post here to ask about recommended powerstrips since I only use a 10$ walmart one also. From this topic, it sounds like the only sure-thing to secure your electronics during a storm is a very expensive and elaborate home grounding system, or turning it all off. Is this assumption correct from what I've read, or is the OP's story not a parallel to what I'm asking?

[Day]

I think you got most of it correctly except I believe he said the whole house protector comes from lowes for 50 bucks. Either way that was a good read.

[cdgreg]

I think you got most of it correctly except I believe he said the whole house protector comes from lowes for 50 bucks. Either way that was a good read.

Ah you're right,

Responsible companies sell a 'whole house' protector for the breaker box: GE, Siemens, Intermatic, Leviton, Square D, Keison, Polyphaser, etc. The Cutler-Hammer 'whole house' protectors sells in Lowes for less than $50. You can spend $thousands on plug-in protectors that have no earthing and claim no protection in specs. OR properly earth one 'whole house' protector for about $1 per protected appliance – just like your telco. Do their solution: one 'whole house' protector and earthing upgraded to meet and exceed post 1990 National Electrical Code.

I'm also in an apt building, but I do have access to my specific single apt's breaker box, I'll have to do more research into the Cutler-Hammer whole house protectors.

Assuming lowes allows a directly link, I assume this is what he's talking about?
Eaton Cutler-Hammer at Lowe's: Whole House Surge Protection for Loadcenter

[Roranora]

If you need a $4 power strip, then why pay $15 or $25 for these power strips? (this system wants you to work to see this

Scary pictures should give you pause. More money for a bigger risk?

Another reason why the 'whole house' protector is so important - those scary pictures.

Power strip should have one important feature - a 15 amp circuit breaker.

Most of the strips are actually cheap, Wal-Mart-quality. >.>; There's probably only one $10+.. instead of the usual 6-ish outlets, it's got like 10; it's kinda shaped like a pentagon with outlets on both the top face and the sides. Anyway, it's still cheap crap, and I am definitely not going to plug this monster UPS into one of those, especially after those pictures.

I can't quite find a link for the protectors I'm talking about. They just plug right into a standard 2-outlet wall outlet; they don't add any extra outlets or anything; they just sit on each pair of outlets, adding 2 inches of height or so. I don't imagine quite as suspect, but if I'm wrong.... something like this? The site said built-in circuit breaker on the 8R15T. I imagine you could make more of that pdf than anyone else here.

Edit: Link fixed.

[westom]

Most of the strips are actually cheap, Wal-Mart-quality. >.>; There's probably only one $10+..
I can't quite find a link for the protectors I'm talking about.

The safest power strip - that does not create those scary pictures - is a cheapest Wal-Mart power strip that has a 15 amp circuit breaker and no surge protector components. Those scary pictures show what happens when a $4 power strip has added some ten cent surge protector parts (to sell the same strip for $15 or $75). Eliminate those ten cent parts (buy the cheaper power strip) to have increased household safety.

Zerosurge is something completely different - a low pass filter. Are you doing professional audio studio recording? Power with less noise - so that noise does not get into the master recording - are reasons to use Zerosurge, Brickwall, Surgex, etc. Those devices do nothing for brownouts and blackouts.

But you stated thunderstorms. Again, different electrical anomaly requires different solution. Thunderstorms means a 'whole house' protector with earthing that both meets and exceeds post 1990 National Electrical code. Nothing 'plug-in' will address thunderstorm threats. Earth one 'whole house' protector so that protection in every electronic power supply is not overwhelmed.

Computers are required to have superior power supplies. But when A+ Certified computer techs do not even know how electricity works to pass that test, well, too many buy power supplies only on watts and dollar. Those essential and missing functions (directly traceable to cost controlling rather than engineering) more likely explain your power supply failures. However every homeowner should have a properly earthed 'whole house' protector installed.

Apartment dwellers: buy the 'whole house' protector that fits that breaker box. Have the landlord install it.

Or the kludge solution: buy a protector with highest joules. Cut its power cord as short as possible. Identify the receptacle closest (by wire length) to the breaker box. Then that protector is connected as short to earth ground as possible. Then locate the computer to be connected as far away (by wire length) from the breaker box as possible. That separation between computer and earth ground (protector) further increases protection. A kludge. But at least is provides the best available (minimal) protection.

[westom]

Anyways, it really worried me, because I realized if my PC fried I'd be utterly screwed. I was coming to post here to ask about recommended powerstrips since I only use a 10$ walmart one also. From this topic, it sounds like the only sure-thing to secure your electronics during a storm is a very expensive and elaborate home grounding system,

First, we literally took lightning damaged PCs, traced the surge, and even replaces the damaged semiconductors. I still have some of those 10+ year old 56K modems that I fixed by literally replacing the lightning damaged transistor. Routine and easy to fix lightning damaged electronics if designed to be accessible - ie computers.

Surge entered on AC mains. A power strip protector connected the black (hot) wire surge to safety ground (green) wire. Surge went through motherboard, modem, and to earth via the phone line. One PNP transistor was damaged. Nothing was screwed. But the single failed transistor could have been avoided by earthing that is required in all new homes (nothing complex and nothing posted even implied complexity) and one 'whole house' protector.

Second, any surge permitted inside the building can hunt for earth destructively through appliances. This occurs maybe once every seven years. Obviously more frequently in some places and less frequently in others. A number that can vary significantly even within the same town due to geological variations.

Third, to be effective, a surge protector must connect short to something that provides protection - single point earth ground. A surge protector is only as effective as its earth ground. UPS does nothing for hardware protection - does not even claim it in numeric specs. UPS is to save data - ie don't get cut off from an on-line game.

Fourth - nothing elaborate or expensive. The effective surge protection solution costs about $1 per protected appliance. Using ineffective power strip or UPS protectors costs tens or 100 times more money.

[Mafai]

Computer power supplies were required even by Intel (and other standards) to be some of the most robust devices inside a building. If replacing so many power supplies, well, read consumer magazine reports. They created trivial problems. Most techs could not fix the problem. A too common solution - automatically replace the power supply.

How much was the supply? Minimally acceptable supplies start at $60 retail. Higher price does not mean better. But a price too low suggests defective.

How to increase profits? Forget some essential functions and sell it at a lower price. Supplies that do not meet even government standards are often dumped in a market where so many computer assemblers do not know how electricity works. Are supplies failing? Or do you have a tech problem?

Does the supply come with a long list of numeric specs? Another way to dump inferior supplies into a market. Then the few who actually know this stuff cannot identify supplies that are missing essential functions. No long list of numeric specs not provided should raise eyebrows even when you have no idea what those numbers mean.

Many UPSes are so 'dirty' as to be destructive to small electric motors and power strip protectors. These computer grade UPSes are completely acceptable to every computer because computer power supplies are supposed to be so robust.

If you are having power supply failures, then why are you not replacing clock radios, dimmer switches, smoke detectors, and bathroom GFCIs regularly?

I can see the history of 3 of the supplies i bought on newegg, and do not know about the forth which i purchased from bestbuy.

ENERMAX Liberty ELT620AWT 620W ATX12V SLI Certified CrossFire Ready Modular Active PFC Power Supply - Retail - No longer active, but with a MB the total was 233.

Antec NeoPower 650 650W ATX12V / EPS12V SLI Ready CrossFire Ready Modular Active PFC Power Supply - Retail - another deactived item.

most recently
CORSAIR CMPSU-620HX 620W ATX12V v2.2 and EPS12V 2.91 SLI Certified CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS Certified Modular Active PFC Compatible with Core i7 Power Supply - Retail - 142

All these supplies had great reviews at the time of buying them.

i highly doubt I am buying cheap supplies, and like i said, it isnt just one pc in my house having problems with power supplies, they all are, from homebuilt to the dell in the basement. 1 psu on the dell, 1 on other pc, and this is the 4-5th on my gaming machine.

[Roranora]

Okay, awesome info all around; thanks again westom. I'm glad I made this thread. >.>; I feel like I have a much better idea how to ideally+safely protect my place and electronics.


1. 'whole house' protection, first and foremost

2. cheap strips with circuit breakers; nevermind surge crap simply there to be mass-consumed

3. sufficient, non-overloaded battery backup so devices remain on to safely power them down

[westom]

IENERMAX Liberty ELT620AWT 620W ATX12V SLI ...
Antec NeoPower 650 650W ATX12V / EPS12V SLI Ready ...
CORSAIR CMPSU-620HX 620W ATX12V v2.2 and EPS12V 2.91 ...

Those supplies are from companies with good reputations. Useful would be facts - the numbers. Such as what were the voltages on each wire between motherboard and supply to identify why the supply failed. Or (what only people with the equipment do) identify which internal part actually failed - the autopsy.

Remember, the supply 'system' is more than just a power supply. Is the supply controller defective? Then maybe those supplies are all good. Each replacement cause a minor change just enough to temporarily mask the real defect. Measurement of voltages on the purple, green, and gray wires with a 3.5 digit multimeter (for each supply both before and when the power switch is pressed) could result in a useful analysis. Those same measurements (and on any one of red, orange, and yellow wires) with a new supply is done to see a defective supply when it still boots the computer.

A defective supply can still boot a computer. A perfectly good supply in an otherwise good system can act defective. Nobody can say what is good or bad without those numbers.

Meanwhile, failures are probably not traceable to inferior supply design. Those are supplies from companies with good reputations.

[Darus Grey]

Westom is pretty much right on all counts.

The only reason to buy a UPS is you want battery backup, period, no other reason.

The only other use for many of these devices is if they actually have voltage regulation and you need that for things like you're running a super computer in your house and need precision calculations...lol