ideas on how to improve DNC for endgame

[Falisa]

I had no problem really using joyeuse but I do have 4 sword skill merits specifically for joyeuse on my COR and DNC. I do take it off for soloing harder NMs though (LoO in particular) because i find it feeds them more TP than I can keep up with. But I loved my joyeuse in campaign and what the fuck else do I use my DNC on? oh right nothing

The last event I took my DNC to was a limbus a few months ago and I got so frustrated with the job, I quit it completely after that run. I personally wish I could get back all the merits and exp I put into that job and put it into something useful. Anyone want to buy an azoth? :3

[Silenka]

A fix might be coming for DNC, although I doubt it will be this update, but I'm hoping. I use my DNC for nothing but campaign as well. I'm not allowed to use it for LS events

[Falisa]

I haven't heard one mention of adjusting DNC from SE and none of the interviews or anything have people bringing this job to their attention. I don't think SE even knows how frustrated people are with the job at 75.

[Silenka]

You might be right about that. Still, I'm hopeful. I haven't heard anything either...

Then again I know how silly it is to be hopeful about anything in FFXI.

[Rionel]

Hmm, OK Blau Dolch is okay to not have. That's true about the over 100TP thing.

What about a multi hit dagger? Not Mercurial Kris (since DNC can't wear that!) but a DNC only multi hit dagger. Kinda like how SAM has Soboro Sukehiro. Hmm, lesse:

Joyeuse is 35DMG, 224 Delay and occasionally hits 2 times.

Soboro Sukehiro is 40DMG, 450 Delay and occasionally hits 2-3 times.

Mercurial Kris is 8DMG, 192 Delay and occasionally hits 2-3 times.

What about something like a dagger ver. of Joyeuse? 30DMG, 200Delay, occasionally hits 2 times, DNC only?

Btw, Talint, your offhand weapon has no effect on Steps as it is done with your mainhand weapon. Unless your offhand weapon gives ACC or something. Just to let you know!

[Silenka]

DNC weapons are fine. DNC JAs need work.

[Rionel]

Falisa, I'm sorry about your frustrations. I have DNC75 too actually and one of the most interesting things to use it in is in merits!

We had an Apoc DRK, WAR, DNC, BRD, COR, RDM.

Haste + Marchx2 + Hasso + 5/5 Haste Samba = 53~% (actual) Haste. Add in Catastrophe's 10~% and 17% Gear Haste... tadah! Capped Haste!

Even without Apoc, if you have 25% gear haste, you're pretty close to the cap already.

S'pretty funny to watch a DRK swing Apoc once per 1.7s and WS like, 5s later. All this done with no 2-hrs or anything~

And yeah, I suppose you're right Silenka. JA fixing really should be a priority.

[Shinryuu]

Hmm, OK Blau Dolch is okay to not have. That's true about the over 100TP thing.

What about a multi hit dagger? Not Mercurial Kris (since DNC can't wear that!) but a DNC only multi hit dagger. Kinda like how SAM has Soboro Sukehiro. Hmm, lesse:

Joyeuse is 35DMG, 224 Delay and occasionally hits 2 times.

Soboro Sukehiro is 40DMG, 450 Delay and occasionally hits 2-3 times.

Mercurial Kris is 8DMG, 192 Delay and occasionally hits 2-3 times.

What about something like a dagger ver. of Joyeuse? 30DMG, 200Delay, occasionally hits 2 times, DNC only?

Btw, Talint, your offhand weapon has no effect on Steps as it is done with your mainhand weapon. Unless your offhand weapon gives ACC or something. Just to let you know!

Bad idea. That dagger would be the best dagger in the game (better than relic, mythics) and you're suggesting giving it (seemingly widely available judging by the intonation of your post) to DNC-only.

And yes, DNC in merits is fucking awesome. In a self-sufficient party you're going to have 2 real DD (and maybe a COR DD) though, so those 2 melee have to be good.

[Spider-Dan]

What about a multi hit dagger? Not Mercurial Kris (since DNC can't wear that!) but a DNC only multi hit dagger. Kinda like how SAM has Soboro Sukehiro.

Why reinvent the wheel? Squenix could just add DNC to M.Kris if they wanted to.

[Talint]

Btw, Talint, your offhand weapon has no effect on Steps as it is done with your mainhand weapon. Unless your offhand weapon gives ACC or something. Just to let you know!

Wait, am I reading this right? You'd mainhand a Joyeuse?

And yes, DNC in merits is fucking awesome. In a self-sufficient party you're going to have 2 real DD (and maybe a COR DD) though, so those 2 melee have to be good.

I'm glad someone else is saying this besides me.

[TheTaru]

Just something random I thought of: How about a lv50 JSE ring that gives a regain effect of 2-4 TP/tick while under 100% TP and 75%(or whatever) HP?


Wouldn't be overpowered, or reshape the job or anything, but it's the best I could come up with.

[Thorny]

the job's primary role is that of a healer, you won't be hitting 0s on merit mobs or lower so may as well chomp sushi.. if you're meritted and macro full acc for steps it doesn't matter at all what you mainhand really :\ should be able to cap acc with a half decent acc macro

[Shinryuu]

What Throny said x1000 <_<

[Silenka]

Sort of a side-note to the conversation, but I haven't thrown many merits into DNC yet and I was pondering group1. Reverse flourish potency, haste samba or step acc, which two should I 5/5? I don't really like splitting merits but if someone can give me a convincing argument for it I might consider it.

And to be part of the conversation: Would a fix to saber/fan dance (making them more potent, for example) give DNC the dd/tank edge it would need to be more useful in those roles? I haven't had a chance to use either ability yet.

[Ezhno]

I'd do Reverse Flourish and Haste Samba. With AF hands and Relic boots along with good acc gear you shouldn't have a problem landing your steps effectively.

EDIT: I haven't taken DNC to any HNMs (mostly because I'm not allowed to), so I'm not 100% sure how well both "Enhances Step Accuracy" pieces and accuracy gear work against them.

[orinthia]

Dnc can offhand joyeuse just fine in merit pts, just have to keep using sushi. Two acc bonus traits certainly helps with this.

Dnc is hard to boost without making it too ideal. Its drawbacks are what keep it from taking over a whm's spot so completely (for some things anyway). What I don't want to see is it approaching sch's level of whm encroachment, ie sch can act 90% like whm with added things.

What I saw from the group2 merits was a good side-step for this: two stances that aid dnc's dd or tanking potential in unique ways as well as non-melee FM generation and mob-facing bonuses to acc/eva.

Something I've wanted was a way to use our chakram to apply steps or flourishes on the mob, possibly new ones (raise throwing to dagger's lvl). New uses for FM (new flourishes): possibly to charge up stronger or less tp costly waltzes (or cut the cost of a ws). Like a waltz enhancement flourish/charge that allows healing waltz to be aoe or remove three effects at once, requires 4 FMs. Something like that.

>>Silenka
RF/HS 5/5
You can get step accuracy elsewhere. The extra 15tp on any RF you do is invaluable and your pts will love you for 10% HS.
Honestly I don't think boosting either one (FD/SD) will push dnc into roles it already doesn't fill, since you'll never look to a dnc for its DD or tanking prowess. You look to one for curing and support with dd/tanking as a side-benefit that's handy. Though it is funny when going full DD and not using any waltzes: tp gain can be great when it's going toward steps+RF and ws only. Potential for +41tp every 30 seconds (full RF merits, RF after every two steps).

[Silenka]

Thanks for the input on group1, I kind of figured meriting step acc was a bum deal compared to the other 2 but some people were mentioning it so I thought I'd make sure.

My question about fan/saber dance wasn't so much whether dnc can use them NOW and be viable for a different party role (dnc isn't even viable for what it's supposed to do right now, hence the topic being made), but whether strengthening those JAs would make them more useful somehow. It's all well and good to play around but we're talking about making DNC a job people actually want to take to endgame events over other jobs. DNC therefore has to have some kind of advantage over other jobs...and it doesn't. However, maybe if fan dance and/or saber dance were made much stronger, DNC could find a better use in endgame.

[orinthia]

More DA or less phys dmg-% lost per hit wouldn't change anything. Would have to push it with additional att, acc, eva, and sentinel-like enmity+ to try and fulfill your purpose, and it still wouldn't change anything except make everyone else pissed their job didn't get buffed.

Dnc has a few main benefits: instant cures, an mp-less stuns that can work through both physical and magical barriers, 10% more haste for melees, and step-debuffs that stack with all other debuffs and are not subject to resists. The only big way to help dagger DD would let them use mandau and all other strong, thf-only knives, and even then it'd still suck without sa/ta bonuses.

What you don't want to do is make dnc's DD stronger than thf's with sata, yet it seems that's all what some people want to see. You also don't want to see dnc's tanking ability stronger than nin/drk or pld/nin since it'd then create an ultimate tank provided it can continue to hit for more then 0 over the course of the fight (it actually can on most things; you just need a brd or cor to make it consistent on very high lvl mobs, like plds that wish to spam atonement since the sword of choice for most any pld has dagger-like dmg).

So why the stigma? People want to be able to pigeon-hole it into a specific role like every other job, have it do one specific thing and nothing else. It can't fit the mold for one specific thing, so it will never be truly accepted for anything beyond easy stuff (exp, merits, dynamis, etc).

There's few things it just plain sucks at too, like proto-ultima by sheer volume of aoe dmg and status ailments. This mostly forwards what was already covered in this thread: ability to cure outside the pt, separated waltz timers (at least separate single target from aoe/erase and add more those), something to help dnc's support side more since it will never be super strong like war or sam due to its main use of daggers.

A real big change though would be to allow it the use of a 2h weapon, falx-type/low-delay greatswords or the low-delay spears, at 240 skill or so (similar to war's non-main skills). This would then allow dnc a much fuller use of /sam and give it further advantages in tp gain and flexibility.

But as it is now, to enhance dnc's support you'd need to /whm or /sch. You do this for those situations where you need those extra -na/erase, curagas, and cures outside pt. Those are all things dnc main should be able to do on its own to be a more successful front-line support.

[Wolfknight]

"- No Blau Dulch, no Homam, no Salvage Gear... would be nice to fix?"

Blau would be rather pointless. You'll be over 100 tp a lot of the time. Homam would be nice, no objections there. As for salvage gear, knowing SE, they'd toss it on skadi which is mostly ws gear (which isn't dnc's main focus) and wouldn't get put on the set that helps what defines the job most (haste acc stp for needed tp for curing and eva as a solo job), usukane

I really don't see SE putting dnc on skadi simply because perma +37% movement seems hell of insane, to mention dnc could get enough ground with skadi from group of mobs and then jig and never be touched. I think SE realizes this problem with putting dnc on skadi and aren't sure they want it on usukane, which is why they haven't putted it on salvage gear which is bullshit really. Personally I'd start lvling dnc tomorrow if they put it on usukane . Which I agree makes a hell of a lot more sense for dnc than skadi.

[Gabz]

Beside an obvious fix to the waltzes timers I think dnc could really use some kind of survival innate ability so they don't get owned by AoEs, something like:

Side Step: 1sec duration, 30sec cooldown, instant ability. Makes the dnc completly immune to any damage/debuff AoE spell/ability unless the dnc was the monster's target.

So for example while fighting imps a dnc could dodge abrasive tantanias as long as they are not the one with hate (to prevent solo abuse etc), they could dodge Discharge in salvage, or any monster spell/ability that isn't intant.

It would require some timing and make the job more interesting to play. Could also make the job more unique by making them able to dodge stuff like Astral Flow/Meteor that isn't directly targeted at them. As the job have no innate raise ability and really nothing special overall I don't see how it would make dnc overpowered, would just give them an edge over other healers who don't need to be in melee range.


To make them more useful on HNM I would also give them an ability that makes them gives no tp to the mobs in exchange for dealing no damage (you would still need acc to hit), because really right now having a dnc meleeing most HNM is more harmful then anything.


DNC right now is so weak and pathetic at end game (or even for xp) I'm surprised I don't see more threads like this. I guess most people just gave up on the job.