What's Better?

**Raen Ryong** · 2009-08-01 10:19

I wrote that guide ages ago, constructive criticism would be nice on a side note =P I've had to revise it a few times over the months with all of the patches etc.

**Fridell** · 2009-08-01 11:07

I mean, the whole point of zerging is to ZERG, not to use crap, then you're better of meleeing with Scythe.

**Tulun** · 2009-08-01 11:30

Originally Posted by Darlantan

KJ for high buffed situations (zergs with SV'ed songs), for when MS is up, when in a party/einherjar/dynamis and your attack/str ratio overwhelms that of the mob you are fighting.

RR for mobs you have enough DEX to cap your %crit, when you have low accuracy (aggressor not up, evasive mobs) and since you gear for DEX, you will presumibly have higher acc with it, also when its a hard mob then the Crits have greater returns.

KJ really outperforms RR in party situations? This would be somewhat surprising, as getting high enough dex is less of an issue.

**Starr** · 2009-08-01 11:45

We need to discuss this in full

**Fogo** · 2009-08-01 12:09

A post in the randomer question thread made me wonder about the following:

Vidohunir: plutos staff or kirin's pole?

**Vodou** · 2009-08-01 12:11

Originally Posted by pchan

Yeah that's strange, maybe it's from darkness skillchains. This puts the monk at 353k, and the other 2 at 389k and 357k.

It's likely the parse was not counting mnk counters. However, removing the damage from the sam gets closer to the point.

Originally Posted by pchan

864 is a normal average number if you only get double march and eat pizza, so if they had a cor it seems a bit low (unless plenty of WS were wasted at 5% HP etc). The ratio melee / total dmg is here 67.42%, I typically get 60/100.

I don't think you got my point. It does not matter if 864 looks normal. I am comparing the 864 to the 90 and that is where the 864 does not look correct.

My analysis is comparing the asuran average damage to the melee average damage (see the parse.) Nor, am I comparing total asuran damage to total melee damage which relates to many other factors as well.

There is a direct correlation between asuran and melee because asuran is literally 8 x normal melee attacks with the easily calculable adjustments for vitality attribute, gorget and boost. This is a direct relationship and a ratio of 9.62 is too low. Normal ratios are in the 10.5-11 range. (Before someone asks, this does in fact include the fact that sometimes a mnk will use his asuran and not get off all the swings because the mob dies during the WS. Also, before someone else asks, yes I am assuming these are all asuran, since if they were not, it leads to the same result.)

We can speculate why the ratio is low, but it's not low due to game mechanics.

Originally Posted by pchan

This camp has less puks than the entrance camp, with HS+1 and pizza I get ~93% (95% is impossible due to puks), and this is done by using madrigal(s) on lurker.

According to the write-up link from the other thread, they were not using mad on lurkers.

I think you have to look at the melee acc% again. I am talking about 4 skill points and no one in the parse was capped; they were not at 93%, they were at 87-88%. I don't know how many puks they would have killed. We could debate the benefit of 4 attack and 3 or 4 accuracy, but it's certainly not zero and between 0% and 3%, its likely to be much closer to 3%.

**Darlantan** · 2009-08-01 15:16

Originally Posted by Tulun

KJ really outperforms RR in party situations? This would be somewhat surprising, as getting high enough dex is less of an issue.

Originally Posted by Starr

We need to discuss this in full

Agreed, a lot of experienced and knowledgeable warriors from all servers differ when it comes down to which ws does better (average higher) when in a typical party setup where you can achieve the %crit. cap for RR, since in those times with food, buffs and berserk, KJ is really powerful as well. Personally, my parses as Elvaan have shown so far an average between 30 to 80 higher for KJ than for RR on birds. Maybe as someone pointed out the race which is usually said to not really matter, is making a impact noticiable enough on WS averages to have some players swear RR outdoes KJ when DEX is high enough no matter what buffs you have, and some others that promise they get better results doing KJ when even with high enough DEX to make RR shine, they prefer the potential of KJ due to berserk, att food, chaos roll and, less often than not, minuets.

**Suiram** · 2009-08-01 15:28

Originally Posted by Fogo

A post in the randomer question thread made me wonder about the following:

Vidohunir: plutos staff or kirin's pole?

Vidohunir is like a dark-based nuke basically, but slightly more like a BLU nuke in that the target-invariant term is dependent on your stats (in this case, INT). So like, to compare to thunder 4. Thunder 4 is 2*dINT + 541, where dINT is the difference between your INT and target's INT. That "+ 541" part is fixed based on the spell, regardless of your other stats. Vidohunir is 2*dINT + [1.75 * (77 + [.83 * [0.3 * INT]])]. So if you're rolling with 100 INT it's "2*dINT + 176", if you have 130 INT it's "2*dINT + 190", etc. regardless of what you're fighting.

Because of this, for the WS damage itself, +8 INT can't beat the 15% damage increase from Pluto's unless the base damage is super low (106 or lower) which for this WS would mean you'd need to be fighting something with much higher INT than you (and that's even assuming there isn't a lower-cap on the dINT component). Now that's just for the WS. If you're asking because you're farming or something for whatever reason maybe the fact that Kirin Pole is a stronger staff would make it better for you, I don't know.

**Fogo** · 2009-08-01 16:24

So in essence, on anything that I shouldn't be hitting with a staff anyways, kirins pole (maybe), but anything else, plutos kinda thing? It makes sense. I was mostly just curious, about the only time i ever use it is killing chigoes in bhaflau remnants lol.

**Airou** · 2009-08-01 16:46

Smilodon Mantle +1 or Foragers Mantle for YGK?

**Suiram** · 2009-08-01 16:56

I honestly don't know what's best for general BLM staff melee lol I guess Mekki Shakki, or Kirin's pole if you don't have one. But if you just care about epeen Vidohunir, like you brought an icarus wing to HNM or you are just screwing around and building TP for a WS, use Pluto's.

**PeaceNLove** · 2009-08-01 18:43