Is Rindomaru worth it?

[Arthars]

hagun's bar is set too way high by SE

can you believe it? the only weapons that can win hagun by a fraction is futsuno and amano(obviously lol)

no other weapons other jobs can get from AH is better or that close to their relic counterparts

HEY NO CLASTRUM DISCUSSION HERE PRZ

[mdkuser]

If rindomary has 15+ stp +, rindomaru already wins. more stats like accuracy and ws dmg+ makes it even better. The backdraw is you need usukane body and feet or you'll be stuck with mediocre items like hachiman feet and hachiman body/askar body for tp. Now I have no doubt people will keep their haguns for epeen gekkos and find excuses for it to be better. Just like they do for pachipachio.

Edited lol.

[Arthars]

pachipachio has been inferior to hagun since day 1........

only thing it came up to discussion is because of omg 5 hit

but if you fighting easy prey, pachi is better

[ringthree]

Well, I'm sticking with my Rindo for now as I'm finding the extra haste is really nice and will have a bigger impact once I get my hands on more gear (Swift/V belt) and I have too much to worry about atm with my in-game finances leveling RDM & NIN (and sometimes COR on the side X.x)

Rindo *can* beat Hagun with Hachiman as it's already been proven with the +15 mod you can get 5-hit and still cap on haste gear, which IIRC is not possible with Hagun. That gives it a pretty damned big edge, but getting lucky with augments... may as well play the lottery =/


God damn SE and it's randomness.

Even if you get a 5-hit build with all of your haste gear with a Rindo you still won't beat a Hagun. You would also have to have WS Dmg +% and you would have to have Usukane body which is like 4-5 more expensive than the Hagun to begin with.

Rindo *might* beat Hagun if all the planets aligned properly, but that would still require testing.

[ringthree]

If rindomary has 15+ stp +, hagun already wins. more stats like accuracy and ws dmg+ makes it even better. The backdraw is you need usukane body and feet or you'll be stuck with mediocre items like hachiman feet and hachiman body/askar body for tp. Now I have no doubt people will keep their haguns for epeen gekkos and find excuses for it to be better. Just like they do for pachipachio.

This muddled statement makes no sense.

And backdraw?

http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:...RB5743-new.jpg

[seiji]

rindo sux cause its the same crapy model than hagun!

[ringthree]

Hagun is a 20% increase to WSD, going from 6 to 5 hits to 100 TP is a 25% increase to WSD in and of itself, discluding whatever actual lesser Hagun-esque WSD augment that can actually appear on the weapon. As long as you're not dropping significant helpings of Haste and Acc, Rindo should win.

Why do people keep saying that?

Seriously are people THAT bad at simple mathematics?

And "discluding"?

What do they teach kids in school these days?

[zantes]

Why do people keep saying that?

Seriously are people THAT bad at simple mathematics?

And "discluding"?

What do they teach kids in school these days?

Discounting the WS, it takes an extra 5 (or 4) hits to get to your 6 (or 5) hit setup. So, they're comparing the # hits after WS and since you almost always hit you WS, it can be taken out of the calculation. Going from 5 hits needed to 4 hits is a 20% jump in WS frequency. I will say that WS frequency can't always be translated into WS damage directly.

Not sure what they teach kids in school these days, hell, I'm not sure what they tought when I was in school.

[mdkuser]

pachipachio has been inferior to hagun since day 1........

only thing it came up to discussion is because of omg 5 hit

but if you fighting easy prey, pachi is better

your wrong, pachipachio wins as long as the - 6 acc doesn't matter, i.e on anythign thats not a MMJ lurker, ninja or HNM. Hagun is better on 2H and HNMs obviously though.

The rindomaru with +15 stp will have a good 5- hit build, which is equal to +25% WS dmg, not counting the 77 DMG. This probably is comprable to hagun, since you have to give up sword strap for rose strap. Now rindo can apparently have even more than 15 stp.. and aditional stats such as + ws dmg and + acc when acc actually matters... which make it even better. Hagun is dead.

[Drex]

I don't really see how hagun will win if the user has usu body and feet.

WS is practically instant, you can attack immediately before or during the animation so you don't really count it in the "delay" from 0 to 100 TP. So a 6-hit build takes 5 swings+near-instant WS to get to 100, and a 5-hit takes 4 swings+near-instant WS to get to 100. I'm guessing that's where the 25% is coming from.

In any event, a Rindo with acc+, enough store TP for a 5-hit with usu feet, and WS damage+ even a little bit of %age should at least come very very close. Augmented haguns are really not that significant that I've seen. Not to mention shitty hagun augments = tossed hagun, shitty rindo augments = do the fight again.

Can't really compare it to pachipachio either, that had a higher delay and -6 acc instead of +acc. Also couldn't augment it to WS 3-5% harder to close the gap on hagun more. I'm ridin hagun's dick as hard as anyone, but I think it's at least worth looking into for the many times you aren't /thf and meditate WSing.

[Ayn]

I truly apologize if this sounds ignorant, but given this whole debate, if I'm understanding correctly:

Birds, Nyzul, Assaults, Certain Einherjar chambers: Rindomaru potentiallyswins with the right augments
HNMs, other big mobs, anything that doesn't advertise fruit loops: Stick with your Hagun.

[pchan]

I don't think the argument is against augmented hagun. You've got to compare rindomaru with enaugh augments to a normal hagun. If you are ready to trade 3 M 20 times just to get a crappy + 2 DMG and/or +2 STR, might as well save that money for a relic..

[Zilong]

I truly apologize if this sounds ignorant, but given this whole debate, if I'm understanding correctly:

Birds, Nyzul, Assaults, Certain Einherjar chambers: Rindomaru potentiallyswins with the right augments
HNMs, other big mobs, anything that doesn't advertise fruit loops: Stick with your Hagun.

Wait, SAM still merits on bird with GKT?

[ringthree]

Rindomaru with Store TP +15, Accuracy +5 and Weaponskill Damage +4% vs. Hagun.

Here is a gear comparison. I did this with basically my gear set up, but the only slots that are really going to matter are those that change trying to get to the 5-hit build. I also tried to maintain full Usukane for these sets. Mix and match may results in different results.

Hagun gear for TP: FFXIGEAR.com
Hagun gear for WS: FFXIGEAR.com

Total delay from zero = 2619
Total delay after WS = 2183

Rindomaru gear for TP: FFXIGEAR.com
Rindomaru gear for WS: FFXIGEAR.com

Total delay from zero = 2250
Total delay from WS = 1800

From zero TP to ten WS it should take Hagun 22266 delay and Rindomaru 18450. So, assume no interruptions, no meditate, and a perfect world in the time it takes Hagun to get 10 WS, Rindomaru would get 12 WS. This is just an observation, for the following calculations I am just assuming you start with a WS because almost all SAM's are going to meditate before they start anything. All WS are assumed to be Tachi: Gekko also.

A few observations about delay here. First, without the sword strap there is a 20% increase in speed to the next WS going from a 6-hit build to a 5-hit build, and this is assuming you are starting after a WS (the difference is 16.7% when not starting from a WS). Second, with a sword strap on Hagun there is a 17.5% increase in speed to the next WS going from a 6-hit build to a 5-hit build, again assuming you are starting after a WS.

I am not going to get into the pDIF details because they are too complicated and too much for me right now. If someone else wanted to take this info and add the pDIF calculations I would really appreciate it.

In this scenario there is not much different in TP stats:

Rindomaru has 2 more base damage, 1 less DEX and 4 less Attack (it also has 3% more delay but I handled that above) compared to Hagun.

For WS the difference is larger:

Rindomaru has 2 more base damage, 6 less STR, 9 less Attack, and ~3.5 DEX related Accuracy but it does have 4% WS damage (depending on when this procs can make a big difference).

Here is the difference in WS calculations:

For Hagun, D = 75, fSTR2 = 37, WSC = 79 and fTP = 1.825. This gives a damage value of 358 * pDIF.

For Rindomaru, D = 77, fSTR2 = 34, WSC = 76 and fTP = 1.5625. This gives a damage value of 292 * pDIF. But also remember that Rindomaru is going to have a 4% increase in (assumed) total WS damage.

Also, we need to consider the 19% damage increase from Overwhelm. In this perfect example we will consider all WS to benefit from Overwhelm.

I absolutely HATE doing this but I am going to use Greater Colibri because of their known values for the next set of assumptions. If you have the value of better mobs to check this on then please feel free to add them. Greater Colibri are especially bad because both weapons are going to have their max pDIF capped, which will not happen on just about any mob that is more difficult. Also, all of this is completely wrong anyway because the old formulas have been proven to be inaccurate and I don't think we have definitive new calculations.

So for Hagun we have Damage = (358 * 2) * 1.19 = 852

And for Rindomaru we have Damage = ((292 * 2) * 1.19) * 1.04) = 722

Moving on, to get an exact equal amount of WS in the same amount of time, you have to go out to 2183 WS for Rindomaru and 1800 WS for Hagun.

So for Hagun you get 852 * 1800 = 1533600

And for Rindomaru you get 722 * 2183 = 1576126

In the end, in this perfect situation you should see a 2.77% increase in damage over that time. Haste should not make a difference in this calculation.

So that means you should run out and get a Store TP +15, Accuracy +5 and WS Dmg +4% Rindomaru, right? RIGHT?

Not so fast. This is the perfect scenario for Rindomaru with a perfect Rindomaru. As accuracy falls (this scenario assumed perfect accuracy) and especially as mob strength increases (this is especially important because Greater Colibri are one of the weakest common opponents in the game and Rindomaru was just barely capped with Tachi: Gekko) this will very quickly revert to Hagun being the dominant GKT again.

In full disclosure, I will be keeping my Hagun, and I might try to pick up a Rindomaru, but I don't think I will use it for much of anything. As I have said before, I do not gear myself for XP parties, I gear myself for important mobs. If you are the kind of person that has a polearm build for your SAM then a Rindomaru might be right for you. But then again, a Rindomaru isn't going to beat a polearm build on Greater Colibri, so that is kind of self-defeating. On anything of more difficulty than a Greater Colibri though, the Hagun is still the right choice.

If anyone has a problem with the builds I used, my calculations, or any of my assumptions just let me know and I will try to fix them.

[Ayn]

On anything of more difficulty than a Greater Colibri though, the Hagun is still the right choice.

That's what I had thought, but wasn't sure how correct I was in this. Thanks.

[ringthree]

That's what I had thought, but wasn't sure how correct I was in this. Thanks.

There are other issues that I have discovered along the way. I have yet to find a picture of the "perfect" Rindomaru I describe. There is one close but it has 3 accuracy instead of 5, 5 is needed to keep it equally accurate to the Hagun.

Another issue is that all of this operates on the assumption (a very flawed one) that the second you hit 100TP, you WS without any time consumed and immediately have 20 and immediately swing again. This can never happen. And the more delay both weapons have the less comparative speed the Rindomaru gets over the Hagun.

[Veyron]

your wrong, pachipachio wins as long as the - 6 acc doesn't matter, i.e on anythign thats not a MMJ lurker, ninja or HNM. Hagun is better on 2H and HNMs obviously though.

150% wrong, unfortunately. There's been various situations where it's been shown how inferior Pachi is to Hagun. But, Pachi looks x10 better than Hagun, so it automatically wins.

As for Rindomaru, I figured Another Gkt that comes close to Hagun but still just a step below. I've always hoped for a Gkt thats better, too bad it didn't come this update.

[mdkuser]

your wrong, the only place where pachi fails is where you need accuracy: HNMs.

[ringthree]

150% wrong, unfortunately. There's been various situations where it's been shown how inferior Pachi is to Hagun. But, Pachi looks x10 better than Hagun, so it automatically wins.

As for Rindomaru, I figured Another Gkt that comes close to Hagun but still just a step below. I've always hoped for a Gkt thats better, too bad it didn't come this update.

The problem is not that Hagun is really that great. It's that the way the calculations work, it is just going to have higher consistent damage against things that really matter.

[Veyron]

The problem is not that Hagun is really that great. It's that the way the calculations work, it is just going to have higher consistent damage against things that really matter.

Yep, that's basically how it's been since Hagun was released. TP Bonus on a set of Ws's that are highly influenced by TP is crazyness.

your wrong, the only place where pachi fails is where you need accuracy: HNMs.

Anything to back this up minus word of mouth? It's been shown and proven both in parses and mathcraft that Pachi just isn't up to par either.