Is Rindomaru worth it?

[ringthree]

your wrong, the only place where pachi fails is where you need accuracy: HNMs.

I don't know if you have said anything correct in this thread.

I really, really wanted Pachipachio to be better than Hagun, but it just isn't the case. I already did the math on Pachipachio when it came out a long time ago. Essentially the problem is that the TP bonus from Hagun is large enough to overcome the level correction and dSTR issues that every other GK has, no matter what the stats are on them.

Honestly, I think the closest might be the Nanatsusaya, because you can keep a 6-hit build with it's lower delay, but I haven't looked into it much.

Basically, the Pachipachio would be awesome if it wasn't for Hagun. But this is true of a ton of different GKs sadly.

PS. Vey, it's nice to see you playing again.

[Khamsin]

Rindomaru? More like Randomaru. How likely is it you'll even get a Store TP augment, let alone one as high as 15?

[barber2006]

Rindomaru with Store TP +15, Accuracy +5 and Weaponskill Damage +4% vs. Hagun.


So for Hagun you get 852 * 1800 = 1533600

And for Rindomaru you get 722 * 2183 = 1576126

In the end, in this perfect situation you should see a 2.77% increase in damage over that time. Haste should not make a difference in this calculation.

I see the 2.77% increase in WS dot over a period of time. Is the melee DOT difference negligible or would that shift it more in favor of one over the other? Is it as simple as looking at 77 vs 75 damage or does the difference in gear between the two sets offer more attack, double attack, accuracy, etc that would swing the balance?

[ringthree]

I see the 2.77% increase in WS dot over a period of time. Is the melee DOT difference negligible or would that shift it more in favor of one over the other? Is it as simple as looking at 77 vs 75 damage or does the difference in gear between the two sets offer more attack, double attack, accuracy, etc that would swing the balance?

Well, with the gear sets that I used in my example you would swing 3% faster with Hagun so over the course of time you would be getting more melee damage. Rindomaru has a slight higher base damage, but slightly lower DEX and Attack. Trying to figure out the exact difference would be long and time consuming but I would think that Hagun would be slightly ahead, but I could be wrong. It would not be much difference either way, and I definitely don't think it could make up for the difference in WS damage.

There is one more point I would like to make here, and that is for my example I tried to use as equal sets as possible for the comparison and used Usukane as the base set. I personally believe that if you prefer a mix-and-match set for your SAM then you would be even further ahead of the Rindomaru. A well geared mix-and-match would have much more flexibility to optimize their gear, and even an Usukane user would have a better ability to choose different pieces if needed. Rindomaru would really be painted into a corner.

[Thunder]

Because you didn't take med into effect: you should be getting 160 every 4.12 weaponskill with hagun which means every 412 weapon skills you'll get ~100 weapon skills with hagun; and since rindo gets the same benefit with meditate it's only noteworthy to say that every 5th ws hagun's going to get ~20% more ws damage(16% because if rindo's +4% ws damage, I guess) which is, atleast, a +3% damage to WS damage.

This isn't even taking into account the extra 60tp because I don't know how exactly to take that into account. I think that should close the 2.77% damage gap between the two on even colibri?

This is all very shoddy and if anybody can do a better job please do .

[mdkuser]

Hagun gear for TP: FFXIGEAR.com
Hagun gear for WS: FFXIGEAR.com

Total delay from zero = 2619
Total delay after WS = 2183

Rindomaru gear for TP: FFXIGEAR.com
Rindomaru gear for WS: FFXIGEAR.com

Total delay from zero = 2250
Total delay from WS = 1800

While it doesn't really have any reall impact on calculation, I wonder why you take those both sets ups. Neither of the two is remotely good for either Gkatana. Full usukane is not good for sam, unless you really lack accuracy (HNM). ALso your gekko set up for hagun isnt the best, not is your 5 hit build for rindomaru...

A few observations about delay here. First, without the sword strap there is a 20% increase in speed to the next WS going from a 6-hit build to a 5-hit build, and this is assuming you are starting after a WS (the difference is 16.7% when not starting from a WS). Second, with a sword strap on Hagun there is a 17.5% increase in speed to the next WS going from a 6-hit build to a 5-hit build, again assuming you are starting after a WS.

wrong, its 25%. and you are always starting after a ws. I don't understand the second bolded part because your gear is not a 5-hit for hagun.

I am not going to get into the pDIF details because they are too complicated and too much for me right now. If someone else wanted to take this info and add the pDIF calculations I would really appreciate it.

There is no pDIF considerations to be done, because your two setups aren't optimal. The optimal set ups will have almost the same attack +/-1. Also it is not clear where you take acc into acount in the next maths.

Rindomaru has 2 more base damage, 1 less DEX and 4 less Attack (it also has 3% more delay but I handled that above) compared to Hagun.

again, your two set ups aren't the best so dex str difference doesnt matter. the two best setups have the same str dex..

Also, we need to consider the 19% damage increase from Overwhelm. In this perfect example we will consider all WS to benefit from Overwhelm.

considering both set ups would be used with 19% overwhelm, overwhelm shouldn't be anywhere in the maths. Same for haste since its the same haste in both cases.

If anyone has a problem with the builds I used, my calculations, or any of my assumptions just let me know and I will try to fix them.

I'll make the maths in my way and show it. I don't like the way you do it because we got the impression you don't compute the same things. Should do maths computing the dmg with both sets, done in the same large amount of time.

[Marootsoobutsu]

Because you didn't take med into effect: you should be getting 160 every 4.12 weaponskill with hagun which means every 412 weapon skills you'll get ~100 weapon skills with hagun; and since rindo gets the same benefit with meditate it's only noteworthy to say that every 5th ws hagun's going to get ~20% more ws damage(16% because if rindo's +4% ws damage, I guess) which is, atleast, a +3% damage to WS damage.

This isn't even taking into account the extra 60tp because I don't know how exactly to take that into account. I think that should close the 2.77% damage gap between the two on even colibri?

This is all very shoddy and if anybody can do a better job please do .

The problem with using a Mediate = 100 TP, is that it's not a perfect fit for Hagun. If you're getting 17~ TP/hit, and you pop a meditate, each tick (other than the one used pre-fight), isn't really giving you 20 TP toward a WS, it's giving you about 17. What meditate does, is each tick it takes about one swing off your needed total for your next WS.

So, 160 mediate would save a Hagun user 8 swings. It would also save a Rindomaru user 8 swings.

If I pop mediate at 68 TP (four hits), and it ticks once, I'm at 88 TP. Then I either swing once and am at 105 TP in five hits, or it ticks again before I swing and I go at 108. A truly completionist SAM could have a macro'ed in gear set while Meditate is ticking away to lower their TP/swing and put extra acc or att or whatever, but I think that difference would be pretty minimal.

Anyway... 8 swings for a hagun user is 1.33 WS. 8 swings for a Rindomaru user 1.6 WS. So, in the 478~ minutes in R3s example (assuming haste + double march + full time Hasso), each Sam would get off 191 meditates. For the Hagun, this translates into 191 * 1.33 * 852 = 216433 damage. For the Rindomaru, it's 191* 1.6 * 722 = 220643, a 1.95% difference.

[Cream Soda]

"Full usukane is not good for sam, unless you really lack accuracy (HNM). "

Its not the best, but its not horrible by far. 2% haste behind ace's/dusk+1 mix/match. Seeing as sam isn't my main, and I have neither ace's or dusk+1, it's right up my alley.

[ringthree]

Because you didn't take med into effect: you should be getting 160 every 4.12 weaponskill with hagun which means every 412 weapon skills you'll get ~100 weapon skills with hagun; and since rindo gets the same benefit with meditate it's only noteworthy to say that every 5th ws hagun's going to get ~20% more ws damage(16% because if rindo's +4% ws damage, I guess) which is, atleast, a +3% damage to WS damage.

This isn't even taking into account the extra 60tp because I don't know how exactly to take that into account. I think that should close the 2.77% damage gap between the two on even colibri?

This is all very shoddy and if anybody can do a better job please do .

I didn't take Meditate into consideration for this very reason. I did think that it might favor Hagun, but then again, it will often push Hagun over into wasting TP. It should never force Rindomaru over into wasted TP, but ticks are never perfect and you could make the last swing for 100TP at the same time as a a tick happened and lose more TP than Hagun would.

In the end I believe that Meditiate would favor Hagun, and I wanted to include it in the discussion, but figured I should actually needed do some work at work (scary thought >.<).

[Marootsoobutsu]

wrong, its 25%. and you are always starting after a ws.

Please stop saying this. It's not a 25% increase, it's a 20% increase. It would be a 25% decrease in speed going from a 5 hit to a 6 hit; it's a 20% increase going from a 6 hit to a 5 hit.

If I have $100, and I give you 20% of it, I didn't take a 25% drop in; I took a 20% drop, 5 twenties to 4. But, it would take an increase of 25% of my worth after that to get back to $100.

[Cream Soda]

Well you don't get delay as an attack round when you ws so in actual number of attack rounds to 100 tp, its 5 attack rounds vs 4 instead of 6 vs 5. 5 attack rounds to 100 tp vs 6 attack rounds for 100 tp. If you average in the times you miss (5%) and that it takes 6 attack rounds vs 5 attack rounds, then it averages to about 24.something% increase.

[CDF]

For better or worse, most discussions of changes in WS frequency for the purpose of comparing shit are based on the assumption that you'll be starting with TP from the previous WS, so instead of starting from 0 TP for a 5-hit one starts from 20 TP most of the time.

From the viewpoint of time to event (WS), it's a 20% reduction in time.

From the viewpoint of the rate of an event per unit time, it's a 25% increase in frequency of WS per unit time.

[ringthree]

While it doesn't really have any reall impact on calculation, I wonder why you take those both sets ups. Neither of the two is remotely good for either Gkatana. Full usukane is not good for sam, unless you really lack accuracy (HNM). ALso your gekko set up for hagun isnt the best, not is your 5 hit build for rindomaru...

I am going to reply to you one time, but I am pretty sure it will be fruitless. Anyway, here goes.

First of all, I already explained why I used those sets in my first post. There are two main reasons. First, it is what I mainly use so it was easier for me. Second, it doesn't matter because I was trying to keep the differences between the two sets as small as possible so that we could see the real difference between the GKs irrelevant of gear selection.

Two more things. First, as I already said in another post, mix-and-match would even further favor Hagun because they could gain more haste, accuracy and make small adjustments as needed. Second, I have found that more and more SAMs prefer full Usukane for one simple reason. They live longer. I have found this to be true quite often. I play rather "aggressively" in general, and I die far less than I did with mix-and-match. I am very much in favor of Min-Maxing in general, but I also realize that dead SAMs do no damage.

wrong, its 25%. and you are always starting after a ws. I don't understand the second bolded part because your gear is not a 5-hit for hagun.

Before I tell you that you are wrong about the math, I need to tell you why it doesn't matter. I did the calculations based on the delays of the weapons in the exact scenario that you put forth. That was to count only 4 swings to 100TP for Rindomaru and 5 swings to 100TP for Hagun. I did not make the calculations based on any percentages, I did them on total delay in a world that favored Rindomaru. And that world is heavily flawed because it assumes zero time for WS.

Dude, seriously, DO THE MATH. The difference without a Sword Strap is 100TP 20% more often. With Sword Strap it's 17%. And that is in a world where it takes no time to WS. Since WS adds to the delay of both weapons equally this will favor Hagun.

My gear is a 6-hit set up for Hagun, I really have no idea what you are talking about. If English is not your first language then we may be having a communication issue, and I can try to simplify any explanation I am providing. But if English is your first language... may God have mercy on your soul.

There is no pDIF considerations to be done, because your two setups aren't optimal. The optimal set ups will have almost the same attack +/-1. Also it is not clear where you take acc into acount in the next maths.

again, your two set ups aren't the best so dex str difference doesnt matter. the two best setups have the same str dex..

I explained this once in my first post and once again in this post. I am trying to see what the true difference between the GKs are, not trying to create what you think is the perfect gear set for each one. There isn't much you can do to make the sets for Rindomaru better anyway, something else that I have already stated.

considering both set ups would be used with 19% overwhelm, overwhelm shouldn't be anywhere in the maths. Same for haste since its the same haste in both cases.

If the difference in Overwhelm doesn't matter, then it doesn't matter, and it is irrelevant if it is included or not. But I am almost positive that it does matter because it is an percentage increase to two different damage sums. Hagun is going to get a larger boost from Overwhelm than Rindomaru is going to get. So I am pretty sure that it definitely is important to include the Overwhelm factor.

I'll make the maths in my way and show it. I don't like the way you do it because we got the impression you don't compute the same things. Should do maths computing the dmg with both sets, done in the same large amount of time.

If you think my calculations are wrong or that I used the wrong gear or whatever the problem is the please feel free to correct me. I encourage anyone to do this.

That being said, absolutely nothing you have said has convinced me that my calculations do nothing but try to build in factors that favor the Rindomaru and it still does not come out ahead. In fact, you have shown me several new factors that work against the Rindomaru in my calculations (WS delay not considered, poor itemization for a Rindomaru build, better itemization for a Hagun mix-and-match build, etc.).

[ringthree]

Well you don't get delay as an attack round when you ws so in actual number of attack rounds to 100 tp, its 5 attack rounds vs 4 instead of 6 vs 5. 5 attack rounds to 100 tp vs 6 attack rounds for 100 tp. If you average in the times you miss (5%) and that it takes 6 attack rounds vs 5 attack rounds, then it averages to about 24.something% increase.

Actually, you do. It's not much, but there is definitely time between the moment you hit 100TP and the moment you hit 17 or 20TP. This time favors Hagun because it is equal for both GKs.

[ringthree]

For better or worse, most discussions of changes in WS frequency for the purpose of comparing shit are based on the assumption that you'll be starting with TP from the previous WS, so instead of starting from 0 TP for a 5-hit one starts from 20 TP most of the time.

From the viewpoint of time to event (WS), it's a 20% reduction in time.

From the viewpoint of the rate of an event per unit time, it's a 25% increase in frequency of WS per unit time.

And those numbers don't mean anything at all.

The way you figure damage is based on the number of WS's and how much damage they do. The "percentages" are just semantics. The math speaks for itself. Anyone that uses the "percentage" increase in WS to figure out the damage different is doing it horribly incorrectly. I predict this is what mdkuser will attempt to do.

[mdkuser]

Here is the Maths with two gear sets:


Hagun:

TP= hagun, sword strap, B tathlum,
w turban, J torque, brutal, bushi
usu body, dusk, rajas, ulthalam
foragers, swift, byakkos, usu feet.

WS: hagun, sword, B T,
shura head, snow gorget, brutal, str+2 ear.
osode, alky, flame, rajas,
smilo+1, warwolf, usukane leg, rutters.



Rindomaru: assuming 15 stp 5 acc 4% WS dmg.
TP:
rindomaru, rose, Black thatlum
w turban, J torque, brutal, bushi
usu body, dusk, rajas, eucphoria
foragers, swift, byakkos, usukane feet.

WS: rindo, rose, BT
shura head, snow gorget, brutal, str+2 ear.
usu body, alky, rajas, omicron
smilo+1, warwolf, AF+1 leg, NQ hachiman.


okay unlike what I said earlier there is an accuracy and attack difference. For the next maths I'll assume accuracy is 100%, or at least the same for both set ups ( which doesn't change anything), think pizza, since it's the best merit food even for SAM. The extra accuracy on rindomaru will actually matter during evasion boost/ flash/MMJ lurkers etc, but for only a small fraction of the time, so +5 acc will not be +2.5% hitrate in any case. It will be much smaller, but still more acc than hagun.


Let's begin the maths with the following assumptions:

Hagun TP gear is 86 STR for my mithra, WS gear is +135 str.

Rindomaru is 86 str during tp and 132 during ws.

Both set ups have the same dex and acc is supposed to be 100% and i will ignor the minor att difference. Also to simplify maths I will ignore double attacks, since it is the same rate in both set ups ( no pole grip used in either case).

Let's have a look at a weapon skill cycle, which is for hagun 5 melee hits followed by a WS. The delay of the cycle is equal to 5*436=2180. Now a hagun, full overwhelm sam is gonna do, in perfect situation where you never hold tp, 1/3 mele and 2/3 ws ( in practice more like 40/60 but it's irelevant really).

So to get started I'll assume hagun does 100 average melee dmg, and 1000 average WS. this way the damage over the cycle is 1500, so the ration dmg/delay is 1500/2180

Hagun=0.6880...


Now the maths for rindomaru.

The duration of the cycle is 4*450=1800.

To compute the new average melee dmg, I'll assume we fight mobs whose VIT averages at 80 (typical at MMJ). Exact value of VIT doesn't matter, it will just change the relative difference between hagun dmg and rindo dmg, not the fact that rindo wins.

so fstr= 1+6/4=2.5 on average. The new average mele dmg is

100*(77+2.5)/(75+2.5)=102,58... so more than 2% dmg increase on the average hit.

The new average WS dmg is the following; Keep in mind that snow gorgets give +0.1 ftp. hagun's gekko has 1.975 ftp, while rindo has 1.6625. the 135 str on ws give hagun a wsc of 135*0.75*0.83=83, while rindo's will be 132*0.75*0.83=82. The fstr of hagun is 1+55/4=14, and the fstr with rindo is 1+52/4=14 also.

Now I understand why ringthree was mentionning overwhelm, and he was right, you have to take it into account: rindo has a +23% factor while hagun has a +19%. The new ws dmg will be :

1000*(77+14+82)/(75+14+83)*1.23/1.19*1.6625/1.975=875.12...

so over a weapon skill cycle you do 4*102,58+875.12=1285 dmg over a delay of 4*450 so
the ratio dmg/delay for rindo is

0.7141...



Conclusion:

with the above sets, the ratio (rindo dmg) : (hagun dmg)=0.7141=1.0378... So ridndomaru yields 3.78% more dammage, which is enormous. Now I didn't take into account the +5 acuracy on rindomaru, but it will matter on some merit mobs during evasion boost/flash/ MMJ lurker, but only for a fraction of the total fight time. On HNMs or high evasion mobs however, it will matter all the time and those +acc will be = to +2.5% hit rate, so the difference will be even bigger...

If you look at the maths I posted for pachipachio in another thread, I was comparing a 6-hit hagun with sword strap + foragers, to a 5- hit pachi with polegrip and cuchu mantle ( same acc and attack for both setups, +/- 2), this done with pizza on merit mobs or weaker stuff, the conclusion was that pachi pachio wins by 3.1%, and actually a bit less due to hagun being able tohave more accuracy during flash/eva boost/mmj lurker. So this maths also proves that rindo beats pachipachio by 1% ish.

[CDF]

And those numbers don't mean anything at all.

The way you figure damage is based on the number of WS's and how much damage they do. The "percentages" are just semantics. The math speaks for itself. Anyone that uses the "percentage" increase in WS to figure out the damage different is doing it horribly incorrectly. I predict this is what mdkuser will attempt to do.

Pretty much.

Implicit in percent difference is that "all other things are equal." It should be considered merely a convenient abstraction but too often people add and subtract percents like they are "currency" that is worth anything beyond an explicit comparison of two things.

[mdkuser]

Please stop saying this. It's not a 25% increase, it's a 20% increase. It would be a 25% decrease in speed going from a 5 hit to a 6 hit; it's a 20% increase going from a 6 hit to a 5 hit.

If I have $100, and I give you 20% of it, I didn't take a 25% drop in; I took a 20% drop, 5 twenties to 4. But, it would take an increase of 25% of my worth after that to get back to $100.

lol just stop yourself. dude, there is no delay on your 6th hit since it is a fucking weapon skill and is INSTANT. unless you are and idiot and wait a full delay after you get 100TP, before using gekko...

[ringthree]

The problem with using a Mediate = 100 TP, is that it's not a perfect fit for Hagun. If you're getting 17~ TP/hit, and you pop a meditate, each tick (other than the one used pre-fight), isn't really giving you 20 TP toward a WS, it's giving you about 17. What meditate does, is each tick it takes about one swing off your needed total for your next WS.

So, 160 mediate would save a Hagun user 8 swings. It would also save a Rindomaru user 8 swings.

If I pop mediate at 68 TP (four hits), and it ticks once, I'm at 88 TP. Then I either swing once and am at 105 TP in five hits, or it ticks again before I swing and I go at 108. A truly completionist SAM could have a macro'ed in gear set while Meditate is ticking away to lower their TP/swing and put extra acc or att or whatever, but I think that difference would be pretty minimal.

Anyway... 8 swings for a hagun user is 1.33 WS. 8 swings for a Rindomaru user 1.6 WS. So, in the 478~ minutes in R3s example (assuming haste + double march + full time Hasso), each Sam would get off 191 meditates. For the Hagun, this translates into 191 * 1.33 * 852 = 216433 damage. For the Rindomaru, it's 191* 1.6 * 722 = 220643, a 1.95% difference.

Your example makes a very poor assumption that you would not be swinging at the same time that you are building TP from meditate.

Assuming 140TP per meditate with the gear I used for my example each meditate would save Hagun one swing over Rindomaru. By the sixth tick a Hagun user would have saved one whole swing from a TP build phase. This means that they would essentially be getting a 5-hit build for 191 TP build phases. Rindomaru would be unaffected by this.

That being said, there are far too many factors to consider for this to be useful. I am not even sure that my scenario is correct or not. My brain is pretty fried at this point, LOL. I did not think that Meditate necessarily favors either GK because it is a static amount of TP that both can us. Going much further than this requires so much contingency calculating at the margins as to be irrelevant. What if you had a Corsair? A Hagun user would find it easier to get to a 5-hit build than a Rindomaru user would. For the times that a Hagun user had a 5-hit build along with the Rindomaru it would absolutely crush the Rindomaru. What if you weren't a perfect player and it took you a second to hit your WS macro after you hit 100TP?

This is the ultimate question: What if you consider real mobs and not Colibri?

Anything harder than Colibri and Rindomaru falls behind significantly because of the TP bonus on WS. The harder the mob, the stronger Hagun becomes.

Like I said before, if you are the kind of person that gears for Colibri, then a Rindomaru might be for you. If you have twenty different gear sets for twenty different situations, then go out and get a Rindomaru for XP parties. But then again, why wouldn't you just use Polearm?

I don't get gear to XP. I get gear to kill stuff that gives me more good gear.

[Niiro]

Hagun
Full Usu
Black Tath
Cuch Mantle

Myochin kote +1

http://i31.tinypic.com/sb3a0m.jpg



That is all.