Is Rindomaru worth it?

[Marootsoobutsu]

Your example makes a very poor assumption that you would not be swinging at the same time that you are building TP from meditate.

Assuming 140TP per meditate with the gear I used for my example each meditate would save Hagun one swing over Rindomaru. By the sixth tick a Hagun user would have saved one whole swing from a TP build phase. This means that they would essentially be getting a 5-hit build for 191 TP build phases. Rindomaru would be unaffected by this.

No, I'm assuming you're swinging, too. Each tick is still 1 swing saved. If you trigger Meditate at 80+ % TP, you're saving one swing on that WS, and several more on your next, and several more on your third. But unless you are wasting TP with a swing after 100% TP (and it'll happen), you're saving 8 rounds. That's all that meditate does. I'm not getting 1.6 WS with meditate on a Hagun because of those 24 wasted TP from the over-100.

Unless you get 5 ticks of Meditate in without any Hagun-style TP, you aren't gaining anything.

Meripo I was just in gives a good example of that. Triggering Meditate at 69% TP, I'd get 1 tick and a swing, WS at 106. Tick (37%), Swing (54%), Tick (74), tick (94), Swing (110), or tick, swing, tick, swing, tick. At this point, 9 TP from the Meditate went to waste. The next cycle will be the same, and will feature another 9 TP gone to waste for the same reason. The last one will feature three gone to waste. For a Hagun user, you're "losing" 24 TP to over-100 TP per WS.

I could save up for a Sekki every other Meditate, and so get that increase you're talking about, but that's at best every other, and Sekki doesn't favor Hagun since you don't get the TP bonus, and at least in the meripos I'm usually in, trying to self chain is a waste because everyone else is throwing their own WS in.

lol just stop yourself. dude, there is no delay on your 6th hit since it is a fucking weapon skill and is INSTANT. unless you are and idiot and wait a full delay after you get 100TP, before using gekko...

When did I say anything about a 6th hit? I compared, functionally, a 4 hit ($80) to a 5 hit ($100), assuming WS are instant.

So, it's 5 vs. 4. 100 vs. 80. To go down to 80 from100 is a 20% decrease (in delay), not a 25% decrease. Going from 80 to 100 is a 25% increase. That's not that hard. Just because you can divide 80/100 or 100/80, and one number is bigger, doesn't mean you can just use that number to get what you want.

As much as it pains me to say this, Ringthree is right. You're talking a 17% increase because of the Swordstrap loss (unless you eat Carbonara, but that brings in a whole different set of calculations).

[FailureMidgard]

Rindomaru with Store TP +15, Accuracy +5 and Weaponskill Damage +4% vs. Hagun.

Here is a gear comparison. I did this with basically my gear set up, but the only slots that are really going to matter are those that change trying to get to the 5-hit build. I also tried to maintain full Usukane for these sets. Mix and match may results in different results.

Hagun gear for TP: FFXIGEAR.com
Hagun gear for WS: FFXIGEAR.com

Total delay from zero = 2619
Total delay after WS = 2183

Rindomaru gear for TP: FFXIGEAR.com
Rindomaru gear for WS: FFXIGEAR.com

Total delay from zero = 2250
Total delay from WS = 1800

From zero TP to ten WS it should take Hagun 22266 delay and Rindomaru 18450. So, assume no interruptions, no meditate, and a perfect world in the time it takes Hagun to get 10 WS, Rindomaru would get 12 WS. This is just an observation, for the following calculations I am just assuming you start with a WS because almost all SAM's are going to meditate before they start anything. All WS are assumed to be Tachi: Gekko also.

A few observations about delay here. First, without the sword strap there is a 20% increase in speed to the next WS going from a 6-hit build to a 5-hit build, and this is assuming you are starting after a WS (the difference is 16.7% when not starting from a WS). Second, with a sword strap on Hagun there is a 17.5% increase in speed to the next WS going from a 6-hit build to a 5-hit build, again assuming you are starting after a WS.

I am not going to get into the pDIF details because they are too complicated and too much for me right now. If someone else wanted to take this info and add the pDIF calculations I would really appreciate it.

In this scenario there is not much different in TP stats:

Rindomaru has 2 more base damage, 1 less DEX and 4 less Attack (it also has 3% more delay but I handled that above) compared to Hagun.

For WS the difference is larger:

Rindomaru has 2 more base damage, 6 less STR, 9 less Attack, and ~3.5 DEX related Accuracy but it does have 4% WS damage (depending on when this procs can make a big difference).

Here is the difference in WS calculations:

For Hagun, D = 75, fSTR2 = 37, WSC = 79 and fTP = 1.825. This gives a damage value of 358 * pDIF.

For Rindomaru, D = 77, fSTR2 = 34, WSC = 76 and fTP = 1.5625. This gives a damage value of 292 * pDIF. But also remember that Rindomaru is going to have a 4% increase in (assumed) total WS damage.

Also, we need to consider the 19% damage increase from Overwhelm. In this perfect example we will consider all WS to benefit from Overwhelm.

I absolutely HATE doing this but I am going to use Greater Colibri because of their known values for the next set of assumptions. If you have the value of better mobs to check this on then please feel free to add them. Greater Colibri are especially bad because both weapons are going to have their max pDIF capped, which will not happen on just about any mob that is more difficult. Also, all of this is completely wrong anyway because the old formulas have been proven to be inaccurate and I don't think we have definitive new calculations.

So for Hagun we have Damage = (358 * 2) * 1.19 = 852

And for Rindomaru we have Damage = ((292 * 2) * 1.19) * 1.04) = 722

Moving on, to get an exact equal amount of WS in the same amount of time, you have to go out to 2183 WS for Rindomaru and 1800 WS for Hagun.

So for Hagun you get 852 * 1800 = 1533600

And for Rindomaru you get 722 * 2183 = 1576126

In the end, in this perfect situation you should see a 2.77% increase in damage over that time. Haste should not make a difference in this calculation.

So that means you should run out and get a Store TP +15, Accuracy +5 and WS Dmg +4% Rindomaru, right? RIGHT?

Not so fast. This is the perfect scenario for Rindomaru with a perfect Rindomaru. As accuracy falls (this scenario assumed perfect accuracy) and especially as mob strength increases (this is especially important because Greater Colibri are one of the weakest common opponents in the game and Rindomaru was just barely capped with Tachi: Gekko) this will very quickly revert to Hagun being the dominant GKT again.

In full disclosure, I will be keeping my Hagun, and I might try to pick up a Rindomaru, but I don't think I will use it for much of anything. As I have said before, I do not gear myself for XP parties, I gear myself for important mobs. If you are the kind of person that has a polearm build for your SAM then a Rindomaru might be right for you. But then again, a Rindomaru isn't going to beat a polearm build on Greater Colibri, so that is kind of self-defeating. On anything of more difficulty than a Greater Colibri though, the Hagun is still the right choice.

If anyone has a problem with the builds I used, my calculations, or any of my assumptions just let me know and I will try to fix them.

Myochin+1? Would you like to put the Hagun build WSing without a 2nd ring also just to try to help out Rindo?

and fSTR2? Uhh, no, here's your actual WS values:
135/123
75+16+84=175 hagun, x1.875=328.125
77+16+75=168 rindo, x1.5625=262.5
Really though, you left out the gorget on your #s, which helps rindo some, so 345.625hagun, 279.3rindo.

Multiplying by your laughable delays:
345.625*1800=622125
279.3*2183=609711.9

Oh yea, and I'm not sure why you're assuming full Usu for a Hagun. A mixed set is more damage. Even with NQ Dusk. If you add HQ Dusk, it's even bigger.

[Edit: I left off the 1.04, my bad, I also left off 2 more STR on ranged slot for notRindo, and I'm still confused why you're trying to optimize a weapon for a completely unoptimized TP setup]

[Gerkin]

Oh yea, and I'm not sure why you're assuming full Usu for a Hagun. A mixed set is more damage. Even with NQ Dusk. If you add HQ Dusk, it's even bigger.

I dont have an opinion on the main topic yet, but i did have a conversation with a friend about the difference between a mix and match set vs usukane set.

Full Usukane

* STR +16
* DEX +13
* Accuracy +36
* Evasion +29
* Attack +17
* Haste +13%
* "Store TP" +13
* "Counter" +2

(arguably the best gear mix and matched, imo. Let me know if im wrong somewhere)
Ace's Helm, Haubergeon +1, Dusk gloves +1, Byakko's Haidate, Usukane Sune- Ate

* STR +10
* DEX +21
* Accuracy +26
* Evasion -27
* Attack +25
* Haste +15%
* "Store TP" +7

Usu Atk: 29~ (including str)
mix atk: 32~
Usu Acc: 45~ (including dex)
mix acc: 41~

The mixed gear has 3 more attack or so, while usu has about 4 more accuracy. Mixed has 2% more haste, and 1%, -1Atk if your talking about having NQ dusk. Anyway i assume you are right that from a purely damage standpoint the mixed gear would be better. But barely, and honestly for normal situations, id rather have the defensive capabilities of usu than the mix.

Again i dont have an opinion yet on rindomaru vs hagun. But i dont think doing math based on full usu for both weapons is so off the wall. Honestly i think people just assume mixed sets are so much better than usu without really comparing the two, cuz honestly looking at the numbers, it seems almost identical to me...

[FailureMidgard]

I dont have an opinion on the main topic yet, but i did have a conversation with a friend about the difference between a mix and match set vs usukane set.

Full Usukane

* STR +16
* DEX +13
* Accuracy +36
* Evasion +29
* Attack +17
* Haste +13%
* "Store TP" +13
* "Counter" +2

(arguably the best gear mix and matched, imo. Let me know if im wrong somewhere)
Ace's Helm, Haubergeon +1, Dusk gloves +1, Byakko's Haidate, Usukane Sune- Ate

* STR +10
* DEX +21
* Accuracy +26
* Evasion -27
* Attack +25
* Haste +15%
* "Store TP" +7

Usu Atk: 29~ (including str)
mix atk: 32~
Usu Acc: 45~ (including dex)
mix acc: 41~

The mixed gear has 3 more attack or so, while usu has about 4 more accuracy. Mixed has 2% more haste, and 1%, -1Atk if your talking about having NQ dusk. Anyway i assume you are right that from a purely damage standpoint the mixed gear would be better. But barely, and honestly for normal situations, id rather have the defensive capabilities of usu than the mix.

Again i dont have an opinion yet on rindomaru vs hagun. But i dont think doing math based on full usu for both weapons is so off the wall. Honestly i think people just assume mixed sets are so much better than usu without really comparing the two, cuz honestly looking at the numbers, it seems almost identical to me...

I -have- full Usukane. I don't just say it without comparing the 2. I also prefer a W.Turban over an Ace's in a vast majority of the situations. If you're under accuracy cap (and aren't going to eat Curry...) then use a Pizza, and drop the Ace's.

In any case, 1% haste is better than your 4 accuracy difference (and if you truly feel it isn't, then the new head should replace Ace's for everyone anyway). Defensively, sure, Usukane wins, and I'll admit I do use it at times when I feel my evasion may make a difference. That really isn't that often, however.

[Gerkin]

well, i agreed with you. Just saying i dont think its a poor comparison. Im not even trying to argue, im just sure someone reading what you wrote would wonder if what you said was true or not. Honestly for comparisons sake its close enough tho ya? and probably a ton less work using usu set as an example, instead of starting a "which mix and match gear is best" argument.

I want to believe rindomaru wins so much. Someone post one with "TP bonus" augmented on it so the whole thread can rest

[ringthree]

Myochin+1? Would you like to put the Hagun build WSing without a 2nd ring also just to try to help out Rindo?

and fSTR2? Uhh, no, here's your actual WS values:
135/123
75+16+84=175 hagun, x1.875=328.125
77+16+75=168 rindo, x1.5625=262.5
Really though, you left out the gorget on your #s, which helps rindo some, so 345.625hagun, 279.3rindo.

Multiplying by your laughable delays:
345.625*1800=622125
279.3*2183=609711.9

Oh yea, and I'm not sure why you're assuming full Usu for a Hagun. A mixed set is more damage. Even with NQ Dusk. If you add HQ Dusk, it's even bigger.

[Edit: I left off the 1.04, my bad, I also left off 2 more STR on ranged slot for notRindo, and I'm still confused why you're trying to optimize a weapon for a completely unoptimized TP setup]

Did you even read my post?

[Veyron]

PS. Vey, it's nice to see you playing again.

Thx mate, having a buncha fun just playing around :D

[FailureMidgard]

Did you even read my post?

Which part? The part where you think fSTR2 applies to melee attacks? Or the part where you gear for "important mobs"? Which is pretty laughable. I'm not sure what you consider "Important Mobs" I guess, but if you have any sort of HNM/Jailer/etc type mob on there, that's a huge joke, and you must do awful damage when you do try to go all out, because it is not actually possible for a tank to hit the enmity cap faster than a properly geared/aggressive sam. I full-time random -dmg taken gear because it's 100% useless to gear for that. If you want to gear for Einherjar waves, then fine, but they aren't much different than merit mobs (Chigoes = Lurkers!). Or the part where you somehow think anyway that on an "important mob" Hagun gets a bigger advantage? Why is that exactly? Whichever has a higher WS:TP split wins on high defense mobs.



To the person about full Usu - how do you define close enough? The difference is bigger than pretending you only have 1 ring slot for both TP and WS. Is it "close enough" to you if someone fulltimes 1 rajas and 1 empty ring? The difference is actually significantly more than that, let's say they ignore 1 ring slot and their back and grip. Just never equip an item. Is that "close enough"?
Sure, it's a marginal difference, but I'd rather see a mixed set that leaves their ring slot empty than a full Usu sam in any situation where their evasion isn't important.

[Thunder]

WTF is up with all these "lucky bastard" "nice GK!" comments on these things?

WS Dmg +3% is awful. Well, it'd be nice on a Hagun, but it's awful on a D77 fresh weapon. The base damage on Onimaru alone is more than 3% WS damage vs that piece of shit, and it adds to white damage as well.

The 5hit GKs are at least interesting, but still fall short of a Hagun (though I guess they can beat Onimaru at least).

Are you still sticking by that?

[Mitsu]

This thread is kind of funny when you think about it, in fact all threads regarding Hagun vs XXXX are quite silly. I remember getting my Hagun off the AH when it was what.....20k and I still have it to this day. I am just curious if people would defend the Hagun's performance if it still was cheap, like back in ...04..I think. Given, now the weapon is the wet dreams of all the sams that have bad luck or are poor, would this discussion still take place and with such emotion?
People are starting to feel butthurt because they slaved away to get a 2-3 mil weapon when a simple augmented weapon can come close or perhaps even surpass it.....truly amusing.

[Gtype954]

DMG 77. Delay 450.

Store TP +12 "TP Bonus" Ws acc +2. Acc+2.

there ya go. grauberg (S). 4 wivre pet, 1 quadav NM. 5 star zone area.

[pchan]

People are starting to feel butthurt because they slaved away to get a 2-3 mil weapon when a simple augmented weapon can come close or perhaps even surpass it.....truly amusing.

Some of them do worse : they trade their 3M weapon to the Field of Valor ???, lose 3M, don't get +1 dmg. That money could be very well used else where, like .. augmenting a rindomaru. LOL. The funny part is that even with some +dmg hagun is worse.

[Gunitsoldier]

DMG 77. Delay 450.

Store TP +12 "TP Bonus" Ws acc +2. Acc+2.

there ya go. grauberg (S). 4 wivre pet, 1 quadav NM. 5 star zone area.

poidh

[Gerkin]

DMG 77. Delay 450.

Store TP +12 "TP Bonus" Ws acc +2. Acc+2.

there ya go. grauberg (S). 4 wivre pet, 1 quadav NM. 5 star zone area.

If your gonna say shit like that you better back it up with a picture lmao

[Thunder]

And a test of it not being just an extra 10% tp instead of the other line of Store TP weapons being 100%.

[Gunitsoldier]

Gtype should be banned on the spot if he doesn't deliver pics within 5 mins imo

[ringthree]

Which part?

The part where you ignored pretty much everything I said. Which is especially funny considering we AGREE.

Take a moment to actually read my comments and not just look at the numbers.

[ringthree]

This thread is kind of funny when you think about it, in fact all threads regarding Hagun vs XXXX are quite silly. I remember getting my Hagun off the AH when it was what.....20k and I still have it to this day. I am just curious if people would defend the Hagun's performance if it still was cheap, like back in ...04..I think. Given, now the weapon is the wet dreams of all the sams that have bad luck or are poor, would this discussion still take place and with such emotion?
People are starting to feel butthurt because they slaved away to get a 2-3 mil weapon when a simple augmented weapon can come close or perhaps even surpass it.....truly amusing.

Actually, Hagun wins on anything that matters. No one has disproved that.

If you play this game to kill Colibri 24/7, then the Rindomaru is definitely for you.

If you do anything in this game more than that you are definitely going to want to keep that Hagun.

[ringthree]

DMG 77. Delay 450.

Store TP +12 "TP Bonus" Ws acc +2. Acc+2.

there ya go. grauberg (S). 4 wivre pet, 1 quadav NM. 5 star zone area.

Besides the obvious POIDH, you listed 4 Augments and I don't think any of the weapons have seen four augments yet.

[ronin sparthos]

DMG 77. Delay 450.

Store TP +12 "TP Bonus" Ws acc +2. Acc+2.

there ya go. grauberg (S). 4 wivre pet, 1 quadav NM. 5 star zone area.

Uh huh.

Did you get an en-death weapon too?