Which is the best mythic weapon

[Spira]

also, whilst this doesnt necessarily involve a mythic weapon, a true SMN zerg ideally involves 4 SMN and 2 COR...

with Puppet, Beast, Evoker and Drachen roll up..

assume garuda for cost

BP wave 1
COR 1 Random Deal
BP wave 2
COR 2 Random Deal
BP wave 3
COR 1 Wild Card
BP wave 4
then repeat with random deals until there are no more, then use COR 2 Wild Card

can potentially be very powerful, but also depends on the luck of Random Deal and Wild Card...
SMNs would likely run out of MP if Wild Card doesnt draw a 5 or 6, even though not everyone would be able to recover BP:Rage every single time...
start with phyiscal BPs to gain TP, then move on to magic BPs with enough TP...
the avatars would likely take hate and die as well...

but thats potentiall 9 waves of 4x BPs in the span of <2min.
if you average 1k on damage, hits a maximum of 36k from 4 smn.. or 9k per SMN...
tho its likely to be less.. maybe a total of 24k, which is still 6k dmg per SMN.
doesn't seem to be worth it, but its strong versus stuff that you cannot zerg with actual DD, since the avatars are expendable, and the BPs dont feed TP either way.

edit: a mythic in this situation would strengthen magic BPs dmg, and also lessen the perpetuation needed from keeping the avatar out. since I mentioned Evoker's Roll should be up - with a decent evokers roll, the avatar perpetuation would be nullified, and the SMN should in fact be gaining MP with the avatar out, which furthermore optimizes leaving the avatar out...

[Plow]

All I was really getting at is that if done properly, a SMN could be doing all that, while adding enough damage to be worthwhile through their own melee, aftermath, ws, and the defense down (as long as it's not overwritten).

[richardd]

OFF TOPIC.

I'm gonna disargee on Apoc changing the job. An agressive well-geared DRK should have the same playstyle as an Apoc user. But thats another topic I guess.

i know this is an old quote, but i cannot express how happy this guy made me.
ive been saying this FOREVER, but no one really acknowledged it. i even posted parses of it. apoc still owns face, but i never considered it to be such a job changing weapon in comparison to other wep's as far as meriting/killing shit goes. but its an amazing weapon for low man situations and tanking bigger things and its bad ass because you can still cap your haste with a /nin sub. and even if i won the parse against the apoc, the other part of the parse showed me getting cured way more times than he did. but in the end, as far as pure dmg goes, an aggressive drk can keep up if they're geared enough for it.

anyways

if i had to choose a mythic, id like whm. i wouldve loved to see that support

[Fridell]

I'm pretty sure they all mean that Apoc allows you to be more aggresive without wasting MP for others, now it's no problem doing this w/o Apoc when you have competent mages, but that doesn't always happen. Check, random Nyzul runs / Merit PTs etc, for some people who always do stuff with friends and others they know and can put trust in, Apoc shouldn't change much, more for the guys ending up with randoms.

[richardd]

I'm pretty sure they all mean that Apoc allows you to be more aggresive without wasting MP for others, now it's no problem doing this w/o Apoc when you have competent mages, but that doesn't always happen. Check, random Nyzul runs / Merit PTs etc, for some people who always do stuff with friends and others they know and can put trust in, Apoc shouldn't change much, more for the guys ending up with randoms.

word, thats exactly what i meant when i posted that lol

as far as meriting/killing shit goes it was still a strong weapon, but its area of expertise on apoc lies in the versatility of the drk itself. it offers more survivability, more haste and its the strongest base dmg wep in the game. but like i said, in merits/whatever, it was just up in the ranks of well geared war/sam/drk/drg/mnk's. thats why i always chose amano for my goal, even tho i loved drk a lot

[Kenji]

Reprobation - FFXIclopedia, the Final Fantasy XI wiki - Characters, items, jobs, and more

I'm talking about any kind of aoe move that takes off all your buffs. Sure a WHM is strong enough to stand in on most fights-- right up until they find themselves up there with no shadows, no stoneskin, no tect/shell, etc.

The only buff that would be taken, which would annoy me, is sublimation. Either way, if I'm standing out of range and it uses it, I'll have to rebuff pro/shell on the melee anyway. RR doesn't get dispelled anymore, so that's not a concern. I guess in all the soulflayer NMs I've fought, me getting dispelled has never been an issue. Has it been an issue with you?

It's all well and good to have concern about something. But until you try and see it how it plays out in actual practice, it's just fear-mongering. Little Suzie shouldn't step a foot outside, because there are strangers who will do bad things to her!

Really, it's not that bad.

Ululation.

Are you really trying to tell me having your paralyna person get paralyzed is a good thing because this one time you got it off your first cast?

It's really not a strong paralyze. I think, in all the Nyzul runs I've done (and I have 150k tokens), I've gotten Esuna off on first cast probably 80-90% of the time. Considering how the melee just stand wherever they want and sometimes move around, it's often times hard to hit that minute spot where I can heal everyone and remain out of range of it.

In an HNM scenario with ground Cerb, you usually have quite a few people, so you can dedicate a few to para. I've only fought him a few times, but to my memory, his para didn't seem any better or worse than the 100 floor nyzul one.

Depends on the mob. I *REALLY* hope I don't have to go over a list of mobs who you don't, or can't stun -ga's from.

Alive is one thing, useful and safe on hate is another.

People survive mijin all the time... just not often people with 800 hp.

hi2u fripan spam, dice dispels, etc. etc.

I think I need to restate my qualifier: I'm looking for mobs with nasty aoe damage *and* nasty status debuffs. Goblins in Dynamis have that conal para move, which I wouldn't count, because you're usually not hit with it. So in that case, standing back is better. I'm not saying a WHM has to be in close 100% of the time; everything is situational. If something doesn't have any nasty status aoe debuffs, or only a tank is in close, then a WHM is better served standing back. Situational shit is situational. But I've never found a problem standing in close when Esuna would be needed (other than the aforemention breakga, chariots, and wyvern scenarios).

Unless of course that WHM is competent, in which case they'll be able to either repose or kite.

Re: SMN mobs. It depends on the situation. In Dynamis, SMN mobs are usually the first killed. So if an Astral Flow wipes the melee, there are still a ton of other mobs up and sleeping. Even if I repose the SMN or avatar, the rest of the mobs will eventually eat me when they wake up.

Kiting is generally a bad idea, since if an astral flow has gone off, then it's a wipe, and people need to die so we can recover faster. Me running away (and usually the only clear way is the way we came from), just prolongs the time people need to stay dead, not accepting their RRs.

There generally isn't nasty aoe status in Dynamis, other than crow aoe silence, or if you pull a statue into the middle of your group and feed it TP, which I hope everyone here has learned not to do.

Goblins, yagudo, quadav have knockbacks and aoe's, etc.

No nasty aoe status that could use Esuna, either.

Sorry, I'm in Einherjar. It disappeared the last time it aoe'd, .8 seconds ago. My bad, I'll get more fast cast.

Re: Skeletons. Well, the aoe doesn't do that much damage, either. And any damage I'm taking from the aoe is being healed from my Curas and Curagas. In short, no extra mp spent and no extra danger. -Enmity is a wonderful thing, too.

A smart mage is not going to stand in forcing themselves to recast buffs, eat tons of extra damage, etc.

I'm sorry that you've apparently literally never fought a ToAU king, or half the t3 znm's, or any t4 znm, etc. etc.

Quite true. I've pretty much stayed away from 5% of FFXI endgame. No ground kings for me. I instead do the rest of endgame, which consists of Dynamis/Limbus/Salvage/Einherjar/Sea... oh, I haven't done sky for several years, either. Hmm, Byakko's Roar is nasty, so I wouldn't stand in there. So, you got me on one more mob, out of thousands. Yagrush gets 1% more benefit; against a sky god.

Hi, I'm an elvaan smn with dalmatica. GTFO with your paralyna bragging, paralyzed healers cost lives.

Can you get away with it? Sure.

Is it fucking retarded to choose to get yourself parad so that you can paralyna the group easier? Damn straight.

Have you played a WHM against most para mobs? It's really not as bad as you're making it out to be. In most situations where I was hit by para, no one was really in danger. I tend to get it off me on the first cast about 80-90% of the time.

And let me repeat the notion I incorporated into my first post: I freely admitted that yagrush has an advantage against aoe paralyze. Personally, I didn't feel it was a big issue, because in my experience, most forms of paralyze haven't been that big of an issue to remove via Esuna. I get the feeling those arguing against it, haven't really tried standing in and removing it that way.

The forest is dark and scary and no one ever goes in there. Why? Well, that's just the way it's always been. Who are you to question societal norms and traditions?

I also fully understand the virtues of not having to. Apparently, you're missing that part. (although I'm quite certain you see it quite clearly and just don't want to admit it because you think it'll make you "wrong," but anyway)

To sum up and restate what I'm getting at: Situational shit is situational; The vast majority of things with nasty aoe status debuffs, I've found I can stand in range and clear off with Esuna. Not in theory, but in actual practice. I tested my hypothesis and found it sound.

And to clear up confusion: When there is no benefit to me standing in (ie, no nasty aoe status), I generally stand back as normal. It's all about adapting; using the best method for the situation.

[Aksannyi]

I don't know, it always seems like when I get para'ed it's at the worst possible time. Some BLM pulled the para mob toward the mages, BAM para'ed. It happens, it's not like I hang out in range of shit. And usually that's when people are somehow getting rocked by links that can't be slept because all the BLMs are para'ed, too, and somehow getting paralyna off on myself becomes a struggle, as melees wonder why I'm not curing them when I've had para proc on me 5 times in a row. Shit happens. Para is most potent when it's most critical that you remove it. Murphy's law or some shit.

Happens more often than you'd think. I don't like to get para'ed. A lot of times it comes right off, but most times it procs once or twice, which costs time, which then costs lives. I'd definitely rather stand away from that instead of try to Esuna. And typically in this case, my Esuna gets paralyzed, some other mage Paralynas me because it's important not to have your WHMs para'ed, and then there's no use for Esuna anyway. Not worth it. I'd rather use DS Paralyna in that situation than try to get an Esuna to work without a proc of the para.

[Kenji]

I don't know, it always seems like when I get para'ed it's at the worst possible time. Some BLM pulled the para mob toward the mages, BAM para'ed. It happens, it's not like I hang out in range of shit. And usually that's when people are somehow getting rocked by links that can't be slept because all the BLMs are para'ed, too, and somehow getting paralyna off on myself becomes a struggle, as melees wonder why I'm not curing them when I've had para proc on me 5 times in a row. Shit happens. Para is most potent when it's most critical that you remove it. Murphy's law or some shit.

Happens more often than you'd think. I don't like to get para'ed. A lot of times it comes right off, but most times it procs once or twice, which costs time, which then costs lives. I'd definitely rather stand away from that instead of try to Esuna. And typically in this case, my Esuna gets paralyzed, some other mage Paralynas me because it's important not to have your WHMs para'ed, and then there's no use for Esuna anyway. Not worth it. I'd rather use DS Paralyna in that situation than try to get an Esuna to work without a proc of the para.

Then Yagrush and Esuna are in the same boat: both are trying to cast one spell that will get rid of para, but both are getting para'ed a lot. So no net advantage one way or the other.

But yeah, there's not much I can do if a BLM nukes a wyvern over to me, who chooses to do the aoe paralyze at that moment. As I've said, that's one of the nasty paralyzes that procs a lot that yagrush does have an advantage in (provided the BLM doesn't nuke it over to you, in which case, the advantage vanishes).

There will always be situations that go out of control, so the only things we can really discuss are those situations you can control.

[TaruMortis]

Except Esuna takes about 4 or 5 seconds to cast and paralyna only takes 1.

[Yugl]

I like how all of Kenji's responses consist of the WHM taking extra action (Wasting time buffing), wasting extra MP, needlessly wasting buffs, or using members for a purpose one member should take care of. Isn't the point of gearing up to optimize your performance? That whole "Other mages can paralyna" argument is like saying DDs shouldn't gear up because if you have another DD, together they do the same damage as a well geared DD.

[Arthars]

Except Esuna takes about 4 or 5 seconds to cast and paralyna only takes 1.

and the cool recast

[Fridell]

I really think that Yagrush have most potential in the end of all these weapons, most seem to be fail at best, only for completion for certain people who have basically everything, with Yagrush it's a bit different though since it can change certain aspects of battles.

[Fiendishone]

The obvious answer is Glanzfaust because Almalexia would never upgrade something that's not as good as relic AMIRIGHT

Death Penalty

(Still hoping ... )

You n me both! Almost to the halfway point so we shall see in another year (or sooner if i can somehow remember that darn coupon code . . . . errrr I mean, umm, nothin to see here, move along).

[Khajit]

lol.

Urat, stop talking. Go back to QCDN if they still want you..

actually he got banned from there.

[Damane]

I think I need to restate my qualifier: I'm looking for mobs with nasty aoe damage *and* nasty status debuffs. Goblins in Dynamis have that conal para move, which I wouldn't count, because you're usually not hit with it. So in that case, standing back is better. I'm not saying a WHM has to be in close 100% of the time; everything is situational. If something doesn't have any nasty status aoe debuffs, or only a tank is in close, then a WHM is better served standing back. Situational shit is situational. But I've never found a problem standing in close when Esuna would be needed (other than the aforemention breakga, chariots, and wyvern scenarios).

mobs with nasty aoe dmg dont qualifie at all to stand in RANGE! cura wont cut it on them... and if it spams AoE moves good luck to you surviving it (especially in einherjar, where shit just spams AoE). Everything that does 400+ AoE dmg is something I realy would like to stay out of range, not only does it eat up stoneskin alltogether but if spammed it brings me quicker down to half HP then I would like to see it. and tossing out big curagas is in some situations realy bad.
on exp mobs I agree with you on standing in for mobs that have AoE debuffs, But HNMs/Nms? Cerberus will eat you alive if he spams some of his shit moves, not to mention gates of hades (this can happen).
most newer HNMs fall in that category, ecxept for kings and wyrms etc.

You sir are underestimating ululation...

[Plow]

Yugl pretty much summed it up, I don't know why I'm even bothering to respond to someone that's responding to "It makes this shit work better" with "But it works anyway!"

Bur anyway...

The only buff that would be taken, which would annoy me, is sublimation. Either way, if I'm standing out of range and it uses it, I'll have to rebuff pro/shell on the melee anyway. RR doesn't get dispelled anymore, so that's not a concern.

Yeah, I'm sure it won't bother you at all when your stoneskin and shell get taken and it's followed with a nice -ga3 to the face, followed with a nice heavy bio, or even better if you get cursed right before.

But, hey, you've got reraise, you're totally fine!

And your minus enmity will totally save your ass when you're spamming esuna + the curaga4's it takes to clean up after retards that are having their mages standing in soulflayer shit. That same -enmity definitely wouldn't save you if your paralyze was aoe though, fo sho.

I guess in all the soulflayer NMs I've fought, me getting dispelled has never been an issue. Has it been an issue with you?

No, because I don't group with fucktarded WHM's that stand in shit "because they can." The para/bio/blind become an issue sometimes, especially when lowmanning, because without yagrush you just can't keep up with that shit.

It's all well and good to have concern about something. But until you try and see it how it plays out in actual practice, it's just fear-mongering. Little Suzie shouldn't step a foot outside, because there are strangers who will do bad things to her!

It's all well and good to go drive drunk, thousands of people do it every day and are just fine.


There's totally no difference at all between "Don't do stupid shit" and "don't ever leave your house because something bad might happen!"

Nope, nothing at all.

Really, it's not that bad.

You might as well be making the "nobody should ever worry about any gear because we can all do everything in AF."

I don't care if you get away with being retarded, I've been pushing the limits of what's possible with the available numbers for years. Doing stupidass shit like getting yourself paralyzed intentionally when there's no need to does not contribute to success.

It's really not a strong paralyze. I think, in all the Nyzul runs I've done (and I have 150k tokens), I've gotten Esuna off on first cast probably 80-90% of the time. Considering how the melee just stand wherever they want and sometimes move around, it's often times hard to hit that minute spot where I can heal everyone and remain out of range of it.

Maybe you should play with good melees? Cerb positioning is rly rly super cereal hard.

Not to mention... Nyzul? Really? I'm talking about Cerb and you're going to talk about Nyzul? Not to mention the fact that your responses make it seem like you're not even talking about f100 Cerb, but 60/80.... I mean, if you can't position an HNM with 6 people well enough to avoid ulu, the people sure don't sound intelligent enough to deal with gates.

In an HNM scenario with ground Cerb, you usually have quite a few people, so you can dedicate a few to para. I've only fought him a few times, but to my memory, his para didn't seem any better or worse than the 100 floor nyzul one.

The group I'm currently running with hasn't touched a major mob with more than 9 people. The group I ran with before this (unfortunately fell apart when I quit for WoW for a few months qq) did everything with 10-15... my trial was an 11 man Jorm, 2 of which were dual box.



I'll give you this much-- Yagrush is not for massive zerg groups that have 10 people ready to paralyna instantly. However, for people that don't suck and cover it with numbers, playing intelligently is a huge fucking deal.

I think I need to restate my qualifier: I'm looking for mobs with nasty aoe damage *and* nasty status debuffs. Goblins in Dynamis have that conal para move, which I wouldn't count, because you're usually not hit with it.

What? You want mobs with nasty aoe and debuffs... but you're not going to count mobs with nasty aoe and debuffs because they support the argument that you'd be retarded to stand in gobs trying to get hit with blind or para?

So in that case, standing back is better. I'm not saying a WHM has to be in close 100% of the time; everything is situational. If something doesn't have any nasty status aoe debuffs, or only a tank is in close, then a WHM is better served standing back. Situational shit is situational. But I've never found a problem standing in close when Esuna would be needed (other than the aforemention breakga, chariots, and wyvern scenarios).

Ok, so if we rule out, oh I dunno, everything that Yagrush really shines on, it doesn't look that great!

Congratulations, you win at internet arguing, clearly.

Did you have a point with that, btw? Or was it pure brushing the points where you're most blatantly, unarguably wrong under the rug?

Re: SMN mobs. It depends on the situation. In Dynamis, SMN mobs are usually the first killed. So if an Astral Flow wipes the melee, there are still a ton of other mobs up and sleeping. Even if I repose the SMN or avatar, the rest of the mobs will eventually eat me when they wake up.

Man, it must suck doing dynamis without any RDM's. You should try them sometime, they can sleep shit amazingly well.

Kiting is generally a bad idea, since if an astral flow has gone off, then it's a wipe, and people need to die so we can recover faster. Me running away (and usually the only clear way is the way we came from), just prolongs the time people need to stay dead, not accepting their RRs.

That depends on a lot of things. I don't do Dynamis anymore, but the WHM's I ran with subbed nin and were among the best NM tanks we had. If a mob coming after you with nobody to peel it off means you're dying, you're pretty bad at WHM, especially for someone that thinks they can stand up in the shit and soak.

There generally isn't nasty aoe status in Dynamis, other than crow aoe silence, or if you pull a statue into the middle of your group and feed it TP, which I hope everyone here has learned not to do.

................

You're seriously just going to ignore the bigass list of shit you admitted at the start of your post? Hi2u breakga, gob debufs, blindness/dex down (if you're really ignoring blind to the extent you've made obvious you are throughout the last few posts, I feel bad for your groups, because you're gimping the shit out of your best damagers), aoe paras, knockback + gravity, yada yada yada.

No nasty aoe status that could use Esuna, either.

Huh? Gravity wastes time, silencega gets people owned, para and blind, breakga, yada yada...

You're right, you really can't use Esuna reasonably on any of those.


You sure as fuck can use Yagrush to incredible effect on them, though.

Re: Skeletons. Well, the aoe doesn't do that much damage, either. And any damage I'm taking from the aoe is being healed from my Curas and Curagas. In short, no extra mp spent and no extra danger. -Enmity is a wonderful thing, too.

You're right, what every group needs when doing Einherjar is MORE people getting hp drained. Every WHM should be standing up in the shit getting hp drained. I mean, if you've got 3 whm's, that's only an extra 1k hp per drain, 2-3 times per mob. Brilliant thinking!

Quite true. I've pretty much stayed away from 5% of FFXI endgame. No ground kings for me. I instead do the rest of endgame, which consists of Dynamis/Limbus/Salvage/Einherjar/Sea... oh, I haven't done sky for several years, either. Hmm, Byakko's Roar is nasty, so I wouldn't stand in there. So, you got me on one more mob, out of thousands. Yagrush gets 1% more benefit; against a sky god.

Yeah, too bad there's no new fight that drops dusk gloves +.5 with a ton of tigers, one of whom SPAMS roar like nothing you've ever seen before.

Definitely no tigers in Limbus either.


I'm not even going to go into ZNM shit, because apparently if you haven't done it, it doesn't exist.

Have fun standing up near Tyger/Khim to Esuna, though. Take a video and post it on youtube... please. I'll paypal you a dollar.

Have you played a WHM against most para mobs? It's really not as bad as you're making it out to be. In most situations where I was hit by para, no one was really in danger. I tend to get it off me on the first cast about 80-90% of the time.

I was stupid enough to believe I was immune to paralyze for a while, too. Then I started doing shit without 15 other people to cover when I can't get mine off.

And let me repeat the notion I incorporated into my first post: I freely admitted that yagrush has an advantage against aoe paralyze. Personally, I didn't feel it was a big issue, because in my experience, most forms of paralyze haven't been that big of an issue to remove via Esuna. I get the feeling those arguing against it, haven't really tried standing in and removing it that way.

You're right. You, the guy that doesn't touch any of the mobs with the most dangerous debuffs in the game, understands what happens when you try to be Chuck Norris about Paralyna way the fuck better than those of us that have been dealing with it for years on end.

The forest is dark and scary and no one ever goes in there. Why? Well, that's just the way it's always been. Who are you to question societal norms and traditions?

As I stated, I'm the guy that was standing on Tiamat's foot next to the Paladins in 05, when your ass was begging for someone to help you with papyrus, and I'd already made millions and millions doing it with a pet group in 04.


You might want to look around, and realize you're posting on the website which, like it or not, is largely responsible for the fact that the NA are way the fuck ahead of the JP now.


That "you guys are just nubs afraid to try new shit!" bullshit ain't going to fly around here, sorry.

To sum up and restate what I'm getting at: Situational shit is situational; The vast majority of things with nasty aoe status debuffs, I've found I can stand in range and clear off with Esuna. Not in theory, but in actual practice. I tested my hypothesis and found it sound.

And to clear up confusion: When there is no benefit to me standing in (ie, no nasty aoe status), I generally stand back as normal. It's all about adapting; using the best method for the situation.

Good thing you pointed that out, because I sure wouldn't have gotten that from the multiple longass posts arguing how doing shit the best way isn't necessary when you can get away with doing it the shitty dumb way just fine.


Did I remember to point out that your entire argument is "people don't need gear we can do everything in AF!"

KK, I did.

[miokomioko]

Kenji is making some of the worst and most unfounded arguments I have ever read on these boards.

[Plow]

It sucks because even replying to them makes me look dumb.

[Jeryhn]

This doesn't really prove anything, as Drain Samba is calculated as a percentage of the damage you dealt; if you hit for 0 (because of stoneskin, or dyn-tav acid mist, or debilitating roar, or dyn-bubu scissor guard, etc.) then you will necessarily drain for 0.

Same applies to the Drain spell. You damage HP for zero, you drain zero HP.

The example that is coming to my mind is bloody bolts; I have the distinct recollection that bloody bolts still restore HP (to me) when used on a mob that has stoneskin up. I'll have to test it.

I'm no RNG (or anything with an xbow really), so perhaps Bloody Bolts may be the exception here. If so, then Bloody Bolts probably allow you to recover HP as an added effect of a successful proc, rather than truly drain HP from the target, similarly to Blood Weapon. For clarification, Blood Weapon proc HP recovery is based upon the damage you deal - but it also does not truly drain HP from the target.

(Magey semantics, I know, but mages typically have to keep these things in mind.)

[Rocl]

Solo a skeleton mob on RDM w/ SS up you will notice Blood Saber does not restore its HP >_>