Which is the best mythic weapon

[hotpiercedguy]

Right following the discussion in the complete relic/mythic thread about Burtgang being rubbish and any PLD that has one upgrade is instantly a bad PLD.

So which mythic is the best? Best as in the biggest improvement for the job?

For relics most people would agree that G.Horn is the 'best' relic and Apoc is the 'best' relic weapon as both change the job.

What about the mythics?
*PLD don't turtle any more (so joytoy or excal)
*All the melees Relic is better than their mythic (is the general view)
*BLM, RDM and SCH mythic are beaten by HQ staves

That leave jobs like WHM, SMN, PUP, BLU and DNC (all of which I know very little about)

So what you guys all think (I would have made a poll, but it is limited to 10 options)

Ddint read thread, so I dont know if it was said, but bard relic is just inventory+14 and ballad bonus basically.

And "best" is a subjective term. You might as well make a "which fruit tastes best?" thread too.

As for biggest improvement, Apoc. isn't even close to #1 in my opinion.

[Jeryhn]

And "best" is a subjective term. You might as well make a "which fruit tastes best?" thread too.

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/fuck_grapefruit.png

^ Obligatory.

Also: For all the arguing about Yagrush, I'll simply restate what I said earlier.
Even if my WHM has a Yagrush, as an RDM, I'm still going to try and beat him to clearing a status effect, each and every time. Any other good mage would do the same thing.

Not bagging on Yagrush's augment, just putting its actual usefulness into context.

[Meat]

wtf @ no mango

[Aksannyi]

YOU CAN'T HAVE-A THA MANGO! *slap*

http://www.remotesynthesis.com/asset...t/MangoSNL.jpg

[Spira]

Well, if it makes you feel better to think that, go ahead. I just stopped posting there, because I didn't see any value in continuing. You're welcome to your forum. I wasn't going to badmouth it, because I felt that was the bigger thing to do. But you're more than welcome to do differently.

It doesn't matter what you think about it (and I can't be bothered either way), but the fact of the matter is that you're not able to sufficiently dismiss any of the counterpoints made against what you have said, instead making up ridiculously unproven excuses for them.

Paralyze isn't just an availabiltiy heuristic. There are too many mobs in the game with potent forms of that status to dismiss it as 'just 1 of 2 spells' that Yagrush is better than Esuna for.

Mind Blast, Roar, Paralyga, Ululation, Fulmination, Discharge, Heavy Stomp, Necrobane, Paralysis Shower, Dread Shriek are but a few of many moves in the game that cause Paralysis. Some come with secondary statuses and/or damage that a WHM just should never be near to get hit by.

The idiom that goes 'Prevention is better than cure' is most apt here.

We don't even need to get started on Breakga effects and Silencega. Silencega may indeed be less of a pressing issue, but the solution isn't only bring-your-own-echo-drops, just as the 'solution' to paralyga will never be everyone bringing remedies.

In any case, your idea of value for cost:benefit ratio is pretty screwed up. If you can think 1 perp cost and 14% extra damage from avatar nukes once every 45+ seconds (provided you're nuking) makes up for more value from "120mil"... you're playing neither job properly.
You're entitled to that, im sure.. but please keep the idiocy to yourself.

[Malacite]

Yagrush hands down because of the raw utility of the weapon. If it had Cure Potency +10% (and honestly what the fuck SE, how did you neglect this?) it would rape. It can even act as a K-Club substitute in merit parties and allow the WHM to nuts with Mystic Boon (though I would still argue, as Izzy as shown, that Mjollnir + K Club is the ultimate combo for doing this.)

PUP comes in at a close second because it dramatically changes the job. Being able to keep up triple ice maneuvers almost all the time is disgustingly powerful.


It gets a little fuzzy from there. Until we get some figures on Death Penalty I'm going to have to fill out the remaining top 5 as follows;

#3) Ryunohige. It's already very close to Gugnir in terms of damage, and from the screens we've seen it has a very powerful impact on Jump. The most important thing here though, and this is why it trumps Gugnir and most of the DD mythics, is the fact that the AM3 extends to the Wyvern. That is a *massive* increase in damage for the DRG, not to mention should make each breath more powerful from the increased TP gain.

#4) Kogarasumaru. The third eye mod is rather weak, but firing off just 1 300 TP Rana on this bitch = skillchain abuse. If Tachi: Kaiten wasn't attached to Amano this would be the best GKT in the game because AM3 would basically allow for unlimited level 2 skill chains. Damn kaiten for being the only fragmentation property GKT WS. Shit, I've already managed a 7-way solo darkness chain in Campaign Battle for *retarded* damage, I'd love to get my hands on this baby.

The order is Gekko > Yukki > Gekko > Gekko > Kasha > Rana > Gekko btw. As I said, if Kaiten wasn't f'ing stuck to Amano, you could just Kaiten after Rana to continue the chain in an infinite level 2 loop (so long as you have TP)


#5) Trepsicord (sp?). The DNC mythic is pretty sexy and has a pretty large impact on the job. The thing speaks for itself really.

[Yugl]

I would argue for Gungnir in place of Ryunohige. While Ryunohige increases DoT if capable of maintaining the LV3 aftermath, Gungnir offers help in a area where DRG lacks. Spike damage. Gungnir comes equipped with 100 Base damage and a nice two hit WS suited for this purpose (Though not sure how the WS compared to Drakes). Furthermore, 20ACC allows you to sub in pieces where you generally need ACC (Or in some cases, use Subs over Pizza). Gungnir even contributes to DoT with higher ACC rating, potential for triple damage, DEF Down, and higher base damage.

On the other hand, Ryunohige, which offers a tremendous boost towards DoT, is actually a burden on spike damage. Less base damage than traditional lances. The LV3 aftereffect offers somewhat of a solution, but in most cases, you're either WSing at 100% (In which case DA will NOT make up for 2 WSs) or 300% (Can you reach this before the effect wears off?). No access to Relic WS (Again, not sure if this matters since I haven't seen a Drakes v Relic WS comparison). The critical hit on jumps might be nice for some NMs provided you land them, but I think a DEF down proc is much more beneficial not only for the DRG, but for the entire group as well. Having said that, I think it's important to look at the DEF down from Gungnir will do in a group setting, not an individual's parse.

In short, Gungnir offers a boost to Spike damage and DoT while Ryunohige focuses primarily on DoT.

[Zilong]

the notion that anyone would use geirskogul for the sake of spike damage is laughable.

really, it's so laughable, it's shocking

[Argettio]

Ddint read thread, so I dont know if it was said, but bard relic is just inventory+14 and ballad bonus basically.

And "best" is a subjective term. You might as well make a "which fruit tastes best?" thread too.

I know its a subjective question.

I wanted to know what people think.

If I wanted a recomendation then I would have put a lot more detail into the OP about jobs, gear, events etc.

As for the whole Apoc being the best relic weapon... I said weapons (so not including the G.Horn and aegis), Mandau, Excalibur, the gun and bow are all great. But I was trying to point out that all relics are equal, but some are more equal than others.

(Im looking at you Claustrum)

@ the rest the post:
* IMO the WHM weapon is useful... saying it isn't is like saying that SCH shouldn't use accession as it makes too much hate. The new JAs and spell encouraged WHM to move into the front line which in a single target fight is a bad thing. Esuna is great for things like dynamis where there is no 'front line' and the AOE is not face raping.

* It seems that the most best ones are for the jobs that don't get much love from the playerbase (PUP, DNC, BST etc) mainly due to a lack of other options (which is sad... "X mythic is good as Y job gets nothing else" not "X mythic is great because it is actually great")

* For other jobs they have some macro usefulness (BRD for song duration, WHM for status cures) which are all jobs not worried about keeping TP.

[Miraun]

Ehh, I've read a lot of what's been mentioned on the thread, time to throw in my 2 cents...

I'm a career SMN DRG PUP. With PLD and NIN leveled as well. I AM upgrading a mythic, and it was a tough decision to make, but I went with SMN.

PUP is a nice mythic, I agree. However, the problem with Kenkonken is foremost, that a good PUP will not overload in traditional circumstances with a valoredge or Sharpshot frame. If you have proper maneuver macros to maximize stats and lower burden generation while increasing burden cap, you will be able to minimize the potential for burdening. Where this is not the case has been explicitly stated in this thread a couple times with mage functions, either WHM or BLM heads. Spamming Trip Ice for Nukes, and spamming Lights without worrying about overloading is glorious for both mage heads, I completely agree with that.

Aftermath for PUP is probably the strongest of the three options. Even at level 1, PUP gains significantly from the ACC bonus. Lets face it, PUPs will almost never be capped ACC.


DRG was a nice looking mythic... Until we learned about aftermath effects. The base damage on Ryunohige is not something that can be easilly overcome. Jumps account for about 10% of a DRG's damage. You're looking at increasing the least amount of a DRG's damage while lowering damage on melee hits and WSs. Now, aftermath. I have not done the full analysis of the numbers, but I do not believe that storing TP to 300% every few minutes would generate an overall increase in DoT, even with the double attacks. It's definitely the nicest looking mythic of all of them. In the end, I was convinced to take the long road down the Gungnir path instead of Ryunohige. I figure the random 2.5x damage procs will offset the lack of DA.


So, I finally settled on SMN. I was hesitant at first, I even turned in a few alexandrites towards a Ryunohige. But then they patched Group 2 SMN pacts. Holy hell did they buff them. Neosutra can attest, but when we did Tinnins, Garuda's Wind Blade was epic. It was landing for an even 1k or so every 50 seconds without TPing. Bursting for 1500, out damaging the BLMs, hatelessly. I couldn't believe the potency increase. The +7 M.ATT / M.ACC from the royal redingote only made it 7% more awesome.

Additionally, I'm a big fan of playing melee SMN/SAM. It was already outlined here before:
Nirvana / Pole / - / Tiphia
Moogle Hat (+13 ACC, +5 ATT, +5% pet haste) / Temperance / Brutal / Ethereal
Redingote (-perp) / Nashira / Evoker's / Brutal
Some sorta ACC augmented cape / Swift / Nashira / Evk +1...

Pair that up with the ability to roll Fenrir's Howl and growl to give stats and ACC, and Sushi, and a SMN is able to effectively melee on a birds pt. Meditate and Hasso (lets face it, we're not drawing hate, Hasso 100% of the time) make spirit taker spam a viable means to regain MP to constantly throw out Physical BPs. The +30 ACC on the weapon is also just sex.

Since Nirvana has higher base damage, and a more attractive delay (gogo... 10 hit build?), more WS damage ftw.



Gonna take me forever to finish... but I'm very excited and happy to be upgrading a Nirvana.

[Spider-Dan]

Ddint read thread, so I dont know if it was said, but bard relic is just inventory+14 and ballad bonus basically.

Isn't this like saying that KC DRK is basically the same as normal DRK, but "just" attacks faster?

Ballad bonus from relic horn is A Big F*cking Deal.

[Kenji]

Long posts to cover things I mentioned several times, pages ago. Yet people keep bringing them up, perhaps to get a reaction from me? And people complain that I'm a troll?

This isn't a thread about which Mythic Weapon has the best cost:benefit ratio. You just let your shit slip and now we all know exactly why you're trying to downplay Yagrush's incredibly useful augmentation.

K, go up grade a Murgleis. Or perhaps a Vidohunir.

I don't think you're fairly looking at the situation. Here is your original response:

Will do. I must say, you're one of the few people that's managing to debate well, and not lose their temper over this. For that, I thank you. While I can disgree with you, I can respect your reasoning.

SS/Self-Buffs (Even Haste if you use it): A WHM should have self-buffs on. Provided this is the case, a WHM in range of AoE dispel will spend MP rebuffing as opposed to a WHM out of range who will have their buffs remain in tact. Also, they have to cast an extra spell in order to rebuff. Thus, this qualifies for both of your remarks.

Even if I give you this, the number of aoe dispels in the game is extremely low. Most of those only remove 1-2 buffs, and depending on mob, sometimes they don't get those moves off, or only 1 at most. So, in a vastly minuscule portion of the game, I maybe sometimes have a buff or two removed.

AoE DMG: Depending on the AoE, it can one shot you. In this case, you're potentially wasting MP rebuffing once you raise and the MP you had before raising (Don't raise to full stats). Moreover, if you have SS up, you're wearing out the HP gained (200DMG AoE? Your SS just became 150HP instead of remaining 350). Over time, this will cost you MP as you have to refresh SS more often. More casts = more MP wasted since you wouldn't have to cast as much had you been out of range. Thus, you're spending more MP than a mage standing out of range would.

There are two parts that you've listed:
Potential one-shot - I believe I've said this before, but if something has the potential to one-shot via aoe, I'm not in range. And if it can one-shot me, it's highly dangerous to melee. So I believe that anything with a one-shot, should be removed from this discussion. Because I can't think of something with an aoe one shot, that *also* has a nasty aoe-status debuff. And anything that nasty, probably should be kited/manaburned/only a tank or two in.

SS wearing faster - sometimes yes. But as I stated, sometimes I don't recast. For example, since I like specifics: Einherjar tri-bats have an aoe that does acc and att down, and they also have a damaging aoe. I stand closer on these to Esuna the acc and att down, to keep my melees killing as fast as possible. The aoe does 200-300 damage or so. I don't bother recasting stoneskin, because I know it can't kill me, since I cast Cura or a Curaga II or III after each one. Casting two Erasegas with Yagrush is both more enmity, more mp spent, and more time used. I like to be efficient.

As a side note, this is what I mean when I ask for specifics, to illustrate a point. A vague scary hypothetical situation isn't much good, unless one can point to a specific instance.

Paralyna while Paraed: This isn't a topic that's specific to you. I know for a fact that Para can proc while casting Paralyna. This can lead to serious problems if it occurs in a situation where the tank depends heavily on shadows. More spells casted if para procs. More MP wasted should it proc on shadows. Thus, this addresses both points.

As I've always maintained, it's situational. On something like a floor 100 nyzul Cerb, there are enough melee/NIN trading aggro, and the paralyze is fairly weak. Sure, I've gotten a para proc when trying to cast Esuna before. But at most, it's usually just one, and that happens a small percentage of the time. No melee were ever really in danger. I've done a LOT of nyzul pickups, so I can't count on melee positioning themselves well, heh. And when we've had a second para, my attempts to tell them to hang back to para me, have usually gone unheeded. As another side note: this caused me to begin experimenting to using Esuna to remove para; got tired of getting hit by paralyze and doing para one at a time.

Sublimation: This is a two-fold problem for mages facing AoEs. One, your sublimation takes HP off of SS. This means every time you reapply it, your SS is eventually going to have 200-300HP removed. Repeat this process, and you'll find yourself casting SS more often. More MP spent than a mage standing back and more spell casting. Two, what is Sublimation? Oh! It's *extra MP*. Having sublimation dispelled due to standing in range of AoEs is enough to suggest that the mage is wasting MP compared to a mage standing out of AoE range.

Good points, so let me address these:
Taking HP off SS - I already mentioned that, depending on situation, sometimes I don't cast stoneskin. It's a nice counter for sleep. Having said that, even I give you this and say there are times when I would cast Stoneskin a bit more than other mages, the truth is that it's not that much extra mp, because the situations where I'd recast more often are rare. If I'm getting hit with AoEs that are 200-300, I'm generally just doing a Cura/Curaga after, and thus I don't bother with stoneskin. 300 and under covers most aoes in the game, where there is also an aoe status debuff present.

Having subli dispelled - I've found it's very rare that I've had this dispelled in a situation where I actually needed it. Let's take an example of, Balrahn the soulflayer in Einherjar. We all run in, CS stunners go, everyone 2 hours. Depending on how many RDM/DRKs we have, he's not getting much off, if at all, until he's mostly dead. If I've got at least half an mp pool going into the fight, that's usually enough. Other aoe dispels are generally 1-2, like slimes in Dyna-San, which end up all over the place and there's not much you can do if people fail at silencing them, regardless of where you stand.

Let me ask you a couple of related questions: How do you handle aoe status debuffs? Do you cure people one at a time? Do you use Esuna at all, if and so, when? If para is cast on more than 2 people, it's actually more mp-efficient to do Esuna

Because I get the impression that people are thinking I stand in all the time. But that's pretty far from the truth. I don't know how much clearer I can state it, but I only stand in when there's aoe status debuffs worth removing (evasion down in Einherjar isn't worth removing, for instance).

How about this: Name some specific situations, where something has an AoE status debuff, and yet you hang back and don't use Esuna. I'd like to throw this, and the questions above, to anyone that responds to me. This is your chance to show me your way, if you feel it's better.

It doesn't matter what you think about it (and I can't be bothered either way), but the fact of the matter is that you're not able to sufficiently dismiss any of the counterpoints made against what you have said, instead making up ridiculously unproven excuses for them.

Or... perhaps I am, and you're just not choosing to listen? It's always easier to blame someone else, then open one's mind and consider there may be a perspective that you're not seeing? That is the problem with human communication, after all.

See, from my perspective, I came in with my opinion, based on a play style that works well for me. Then I get people like you, who seem so very threatened by the idea that someone is different. I suppose, because it hits at the notion that yagrush may not be all that it's cracked up to be, and you've got part of your psyche invested in that. I don't know; just honestly wondering why the blowback.

Why so threatened that someone plays differently than you, and gets by just fine? Is just a "feel good" thing?

Paralyze isn't just an availabiltiy heuristic. There are too many mobs in the game with potent forms of that status to dismiss it as 'just 1 of 2 spells' that Yagrush is better than Esuna for.

Your list:
Mind Blast - conal, not aoe. Even standing back you can get hit by it. Even so, i's not something I'd use Esuna for, since if your melee are smart, only 1 or 2 people get hit(in your party). Can be stricken from list.
Roar - Already admitted it's a bad paralyze. Can we move past his now?
Paralyga - cast by what mob? Potency, as we've discovered, is determined by caster MND vs. target MND. The version cast by statues in Dynamis are easily removed. I went through a whole dynamis recently, removing about 8 or 9 of them with Esuna, without freezing up once.
Ululation - I've never had a problem.
Fulmination - Huge range. Although the only Khim I've fought was in nyzul, on various floors. Already mentioned this.
Discharge - Chariot, already mentioned this is bad and that I stand back for it.
Heavy Stomp - Dragons; I already mentioned this, several times. I stand back. Dragons have a ton of TP moves, and Body Slam in particular is nasty aoe. This is one of those few exceptions I mentioned before. And I'll keep mentioning until people realize I've mentioned it again and again.
Necrobane - The last Dverger I actually fought was the assault one, which was before Esuna. The Ein one is kited and not actually fought. The last being PW, which I admit to not having fought, and don't intend to. So, I'll give 1/3rd points.

Paralysis Shower - another bad example of yours, since this is conal and not AoE. Perhaps you're unclear that when I say AoE, I mean a wide area where people all around get hit, and not just a few people in front of the mob? Because Esuna would not be used in conal effects. I rarely get with this because of that, so I can't recall off hand how badly it affected me. I don't seem to recall it being that bad.

Dread Shriek - Wyverns. Once again, I already mentioned this.

So, you scored a 1/3rd of a point. You're doing worse than Yugl. You might want to let him continue this in your place, as he's doing a better job.

You might also want to go back to my first post where I admitted yagrush is better on wyverns and chariots. And read up on my other posts to see what things I've covered. Before reading the rest of your post, I surmise that you will mention breakga and silencega, even though I covered those, multiple times, several pages ago.

We don't even need to get started on Breakga effects and Silencega. Silencega may indeed be less of a pressing issue, but the solution isn't only bring-your-own-echo-drops, just as the 'solution' to paralyga will never be everyone bringing remedies.

There it is. Remedies to paralyga is a straw man; no one does it because you can go through several remedies to cure one paralyze. An echo drop is guarenteed to remove silence (unless it's the last CoP BC). And before people jump on my case, saying "SEEE!", it's different for a WHM. One other thing I've said before, is that melee's freeze up more due to lower MND, so they notice it more. SMNs, too, as they aren't stacking a lot of MND. Even RDMs, if they are currently in their INT set. So everyone else notices themselves freezing up more.

In any case, your idea of value for cost:benefit ratio is pretty screwed up. If you can think 1 perp cost and 14% extra damage from avatar nukes once every 45+ seconds (provided you're nuking) makes up for more value from "120mil"... you're playing neither job properly.
You're entitled to that, im sure.. but please keep the idiocy to yourself.

You finally start to approach a decent NEW point, and then end with ad hominem. You had promise. Just like on KI, god forbid an actual discussion take place on a forum, where people compare ideas and playstyles. But I'll look past it in this case, and let you in on my thought process that led me to choose Nirvana over Yagrush.

A SMN pulls out an avatar a lot, much more than a WHM will aoe status cure. Thus, -1 perp comes into play vastly more. MAB+20 might not seem to come in more, but there is still a shortage of pet: MAB gear. With the Merit BPs as they are, the lv75 pacts will see much use, whenever I am on SMN. Basically, I'll start replacing P.Claws with Wind Blade on hardier targets. Not to mention, that MAB+20 upgrades multiple abilities across all avatars, rather than just 2 spells.

Yagrush upgrades me for a much smaller portion of the game, then Nirvana does. Not to mention, Nirvana is nearly a full time piece, whereas yag is a macro piece. Esuna covers 80% at least, of what Yag would.

Lastly, the aftermath on my SMN will actually see use. It'll take some testing, and some of the SMN/SAM people have been laughed at, but it *might* actually be viable in some situations(as I said, needs testing; theory only goes so far). The aftermath on Yagrush kinda sucks, and if I wanted to do damage with my WHM, I'd go for a mjollnir. I have other jobs I can use when I need various forms of damage, so I have no desire to. And ironically, at this point, a kclub is coming out cheaper than a yagrush.

And at this point, I have a feeling people will start debating the validity of a melee SMN. Le sigh.

[Malacite]

I dunno guys, yes Ryunohige will beat Gugnir hit for hit, but you have to factor in that the DA rate is applying to boththe DRG and the Wyvern. That's going to skew the numbers heavily in a long fight.

And LOL @ Geirksogul... shit WS >_> Drakesbane or gtfo. (or Wheeling Thrust I suppose if you really need a light chain? Geirk should only be used for the double-light/dark w/e it makes. F the shock spikes)

[Spider-Dan]

Potential one-shot - I believe I've said this before, but if something has the potential to one-shot via aoe, I'm not in range. And if it can one-shot me, it's highly dangerous to melee. So I believe that anything with a one-shot, should be removed from this discussion. Because I can't think of something with an aoe one shot, that *also* has a nasty aoe-status debuff.

Armor Buster?
Gates of Hades?

Taking HP off SS - I already mentioned that, depending on situation, sometimes I don't cast stoneskin. It's a nice counter for sleep.

Um, or you can cast stoneskin and then click it off if you get slept?

Again, standing outside of AoE makes you a hell of a lot less likely to be slept in the first place.

How about this: Name some specific situations, where something has an AoE status debuff, and yet you hang back and don't use Esuna.

Anything that uses AoE paralyze or AoE dispel or high AoE damage?

You dismiss all the instances of the first out-of-hand, but if you aren't standing in for things with AoE paralyze, then you aren't standing in for:

Seiryu, Byakko, Cerberus, Khimaira, chariots, wyverns

And if you aren't standing in for mobs with AoE dispel, then you aren't standing in for:

Hydra, Genbu, Adamantoise, NM flayers

And if you aren't standing in for mobs with high-damage AoE, you aren't standing in for:

Proto-Ultima, wyrms, Dynamis Lord, poroggos

So what, exactly, is it that you are standing in range to remove?

[Valkrish]

Lots of good information as always, just remember that as awesome as it is, the time required is still quite a bit of work.

Good Luck.

[Plow]

So what, exactly, is it that you are standing in range to remove?

Hurricane wing duh!


Seriously, though, I wanna know how this dude has floor 100 done and significant enough progress to mention doing Nirvana without ever running into a vile.

[thetruepandagod]

the notion that anyone would use geirskogul for the sake of spike damage is laughable.

really, it's so laughable, it's shocking

im sry i can't let this post go by without anyone noticing it was genuinely hilarious.