The MMA Thread of 2009-Forever

[Dimmauk]

Good read here.

Fickle Fans and Fellow Fighters Turn on Forrest Griffin
by Kid Nate on Aug 10, 2009 11:58 AM EDT in News 161 comments

MMA fans might be the harshest and most fickle in the sporting world. There is no better demonstration of the "what have you done for me lately mentality" than the way we have collectively turned on former favorite Forrest Griffin. For an example see the photo shop on the right which has been making the rounds in the BE comments, on the UG and the Sherdog boards.

Not all of the criticism has been mean or knee-jerk. There are questions about whether he was ever any good to begin with, Zak Woods:

Is Anderson Silva just that good or have we been inflating Forrest Griffin's status and abilities for some time?

We always knew that Griffin's chin was not a solid rock nor did he have heavy hands but Forrest had reinvented himself into a tactician. None of that was on display last night.

For the record Forrest Griffin is now 2-2 in marquee fights at light heavyweight (victories over Quinton Jackson and Mauricio Rua, loses to Anderson Silva and Rashad Evans). If we include the Keith Jardine loss than Griffin slides to 2-3 in fights against top competition. All three of those loses come via knockout.

If we dissect Griffin's victories than they appear to be paper tigers as well. Griffin was the beneficiary of favorable judging against Jackson on top of Quinton's mental issues that became apparent after the fight. In the Shogun bout Rua was fighting on one leg due to an ACL tear and was still able to bloody Griffin though in the end Rua would be submitted in unspectacular fashion.

And BE reader FlyByKnight declares Forrest's career over in a thoughtful and even-handed piece, that is nonetheless, damning:

Whether one wants to admit it or not, Forrest Griffin's career is pretty much dead as we know it. His days as that one guy who helped bring millions of fans into the UFC are over. His days as that one guy who had his career slaughtered at the hands of Anderson Silva has begun. There's no shame in losing to Anderson Silva. None whatsoever. But, this loss stands out above all others. In one of the most bizarre, embarrassing, and highlight reel knockouts ever completed, Anderson Silva ended Forrest Griffin's career in essentially the same jaw-dropping fashion that it began. And it, quite simply, is a shame.

I'm not even going to dignify the pernicious and wide spread chatter from the knuckle dragging set who insist on believing the fight was a work. News flash idiots -- a work benefits the promotion or the bookies. Anderson Silva was a heavy favorite, he was expected to win and the odds accounted for it. There was no killing to be made off Forrest taking a dive. Secondly, from the UFC's perspective it was a disaster and exactly the opposite outcome that they wanted. The fight seriously damaged the brand of one of their marquee fighters to the benefit of one of their worst draws.

The apparently false reports that he suffered a broken or dislocated jaw seemed to help his cause and many fans embraced that as a life raft for their sinking admiration for Forrest. But with reports surfacing that he suffered no such injury, it's not looking good for Griffin apologists.

Forrest Griffin is the definitive organization man for the UFC. He is beyond loyal to Dana White and that loyalty is a two-way street. Anderson Silva on the other hand is openly scheming to get out of his UFC obligations as quickly and profitably as possible -- his latest gambit is to drop his middleweight belt and move up to 205lbs permanently, even though he insists he won't fight light heavyweight champ Lyoto Machida. If the UFC falls for this transparent attempt to escape the champion clause of their contracts -- which essentially traps their champs into an auto-renewing contract until they lose the title or retire from MMA -- I'll be shocked.

In the meantime, Forrest was certainly ill-served on a number of fronts -- by his own terrible game-planning (or failure to implement a game plan), by Joe Silva and Dana White he apparently seriously over-rated his abilities to give Anderson Silva a tough fight, by the fans and most of all by his own antics during the fight when he visibly gave up and charged chin-first into the third and final knockdown and then ran from the cage.

[Brill Weave]

I have lost absolutely no respect for Griffin. None, at all. There is no shame in losing to Silva. He has always been, and will always be, extremely emotional after fights. I hope that his career isn't damaged by this loss because I think despite this he will still be a fan favorite. I don't think he gave up during the fight either. I think he just started swinging for the fences and got caught. He's never been a fast striker. Not even close. He's got decent power, but nothing to get giddy over. He's a run of the mill average guy who has developed what little abilities he had into assets. There's no really weak part of Forrest's game. But there's no really strong part. The guy's strongest asset is that he will swing with anyone and he lets the cards fall where they may.

Nothing but love for Forrest.



No homo.

[archibaldcrane]

The guy's strongest asset is that he will swing with anyone and he lets the cards fall where they may.

I agree. He was completely overmatched by Silva, but he didn't pass up the fight.

Honestly I think Silva -might- be able to dominate 205 even better than he did at 185 - his quickness and ability to counterpunch matches up even better with the bigger slower-punching 205 top guys. Evans is pretty quick, and Machida is a similar counterstriker (that fight might be a fucking snoozefest honestly) but your Rampage/Jardine/Griffin/Liddell type guys are just way too slow for Silva IMO.

The fact that none of the 205 guys are real wrestlers helps Silva too - he's fine on the ground (BJJ black belt, etc etc - means less the bigger guys get in my honest opinion) but if there was a big wrestling fucker at 205 that could be trouble for him...maybe.

[Chips]

The fact that none of the 205 guys are real wrestlers helps Silva too - he's fine on the ground (BJJ black belt, etc etc - means less the bigger guys get in my honest opinion) but if there was a big wrestling fucker at 205 that could be trouble for him...maybe.

Ryan Bader? :O And to the above posters, in my eyes Griffin is still an awesome fighter that just wasn't on his game tonight. As for his post fight antics, he's always been extremely emotional:butt-hugging Bill Mahood after his RNC, crying after his loss to Keith Jardine and his arm-flailing victory run against Shogun. He'll come back stronger than ever before, and I expect a good win streak to follow.

[Blarg]

Arona is one of the few top position grapplers at 205 but he hasn't fought in a while so we don't know of he is still good.

One more diaz thing, people are saying that now/this fight/because of this that he is an idiot and they hate him and things like that. Diaz was doing the same thing for this fight as last fight and he fight before, so if your opinion of him dropped from this event you are being a hypocrite.

[quannum]

Diaz was doing the same thing for this fight as last fight and he fight before, so if your opinion of him dropped from this event you are being a hypocrite.

There's an old saying in Tennessee, I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee—that says, fool me once, shame on—shame on you. Fool me—you can't get fooled again.

[Dimmauk]

There's an old saying in Tennessee, I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee—that says, fool me once, shame on—shame on you. Fool me—you can't get fooled again.

Classic Bushism.

[Blarg]

Just listened to sherdog radio and loretta hunt said that even if he was on adderall he would have had to have his system clean of the drug even with a prescription (adderall is banned too). So if he was using adderall he would be in the exact same position as he is now. This makes it seem like it's almost entirely the fault of the commission policy change for nick diaz.

[noblemountain]

Just listened to sherdog radio and loretta hunt said that even if he was on adderall he would have had to have his system clean of the drug even with a prescription (adderall is banned too). So if he was using adderall he would be in the exact same position as he is now. This makes it seem like it's almost entirely the fault of the commission policy change for nick diaz.

True. Although, I don't think they'd have singled him out for a test if he'd tested positive for Adderall before.

[Dimmauk]

Just listened to sherdog radio and loretta hunt said that even if he was on adderall he would have had to have his system clean of the drug even with a prescription (adderall is banned too). So if he was using adderall he would be in the exact same position as he is now. This makes it seem like it's almost entirely the fault of the commission policy change for nick diaz.

Could that be considered discrimination against someone that is mentally handicapped? How do other fighters that have ADD/Hyperactivity deal with drug tests?

[Blarg]

Random drug tests I think are a rather new thing for mma (within the last year or so). I don't know if they really updated their rules about drugs like that since that was put into place since it seems unfair for people actually on ADD drugs.

Diaz tested positive in japan and I seem to remember his thc or whatever they test for levels being incredibly high which would mean that diaz didn't expect any sort of test like that which wouldn't surprise me since drug tests in japan are very slack. So aside from that what he had been doing to ensure clean tests had worked for every fight so far.

[archibaldcrane]

Honestly I think it's bullshit that the fighters are allowed to be tipped off to when the tests will be - it seems like the state commissions would look down on/be against that.

Might as well just pound steroids if you know when you need to be clean by - what prevents this?

[Blarg]

Honestly I think it's bullshit that the fighters are allowed to be tipped off to when the tests will be - it seems like the state commissions would look down on/be against that.

Might as well just pound steroids if you know when you need to be clean by - what prevents this?

Are you talking about the deal diaz had? He wasn't tipped off since everyone gets tested on fight night, it was just an agreement to only get tested then. The only notice other fighters get for random tests is a day or 2 which isn't near enough time to clear you from performance enhancing drugs.

[archibaldcrane]

Are you talking about the deal diaz had? He wasn't tipped off since everyone gets tested on fight night, it was just an agreement to only get tested then. The only notice other fighters get for random tests is a day or 2 which isn't near enough time to clear you from performance enhancing drugs.

So, he knew exactly when his lone single test would be (supposedly) - how is that not a green light to pound steroids until right when he knows needs to clear himself?

If I was on the state athletic commission, that shit wouldn't fly with me.

If I was another fighter, I'd be pissed off that I had to be subjected to random tests and Diaz had a sweetheart deal.

[Blarg]

So, he knew exactly when his lone single test would be (supposedly) - how is that not a green light to pound steroids until right when he knows needs to clear himself?

If I was on the state athletic commission, that shit wouldn't fly with me.

If I was another fighter, I'd be pissed off that I had to be subjected to random tests and Diaz had a sweetheart deal.

Almost every non ufc main even fighter is not subject to random tests, I said they were relatively new in the sport so the logistics are likely still being worked out. On most ufc events the main event and co mainm if there is onem are all random tested leading to the fight and then 1-2 other fighters are 'randomly' chosen to also receive a random drug test so everyone on that card has the potential to be drug tested at random which should discourage people risking it. Since non ufc orgs are viewed as lower tier fighters the commissions don't seem to care too much about going above and beyond for random tests for money reasons or for the idea that the damage to the sport is less if joe schmo used steroids in a fight. This bias for ufc isn't really a rule but it was generally followed (exceptions being some affliction fights) and now it seems strikeforce non main event fights as well.

[noblemountain]

Almost every non ufc main even fighter is not subject to random tests, I said they were relatively new in the sport so the logistics are likely still being worked out. On most ufc events the main event and co mainm if there is onem are all random tested leading to the fight and then 1-2 other fighters are 'randomly' chosen to also receive a random drug test so everyone on that card has the potential to be drug tested at random which should discourage people risking it. Since non ufc orgs are viewed as lower tier fighters the commissions don't seem to care too much about going above and beyond for random tests for money reasons or for the idea that the damage to the sport is less if joe schmo used steroids in a fight. This bias for ufc isn't really a rule but it was generally followed (exceptions being some affliction fights) and now it seems strikeforce non main event fights as well.

The biggest reason that Joe Schmo at random MMA event 232 isn't tested is money. They test the bigger names or the people with histories fairly regularly. Be it UFC/Affliction/Strikeforce. It would be impossible to do a random screening of every show in the US, just from a cost standpoint, but I hope they start doing it for all the bigger shows more regularly. I was looking forward to the Diaz fight, but that doesn't mean that he knew the risks involved when he toked up. He knows that he is playing with fire and he's willing to risk his career on that. I have only ever been tested post-event one time.

As far as what you're talking about arch, that is in almost every sport. Even the "random" screenings that some sports do are scheduled. In combat sports, however, it's always been a test on fight-night system. Unless you're a repeat offender and have to be tested to renew your license. (looking at you Barnett) There is nothing stopping you from "pounding steroids" until you need to get clean. There are a lot of guys who take advantage of that, I'm sure. I don't understand the appeal honestly, since they don't help out the MMA athlete that much...and may even hinder them by giving them less gas in the tank.

[Blarg]

A lot of the people caught for steroids said it was for recovery/injury reasons. How honest that is I don't know.

Noble, are you a pro or amateur fighter and how many fights have you had. I always assumed pro fighters had to be tested but I never really paid attention to people not in the bigger orgs.

[noblemountain]

A lot of the people caught for steroids said it was for recovery/injury reasons. How honest that is I don't know.

Noble, are you a pro or amateur fighter and how many fights have you had. I always assumed pro fighters had to be tested but I never really paid attention to people not in the bigger orgs.

I fight pro now. I am 4-2 professionally and was 10-1 amateur. I have only fought on smaller, regional cards to this date though. I am gearing up training camp right now to make a full commitment run. I haven't had one camp yet where I wasn't distracted by other things and now I have the opportunity to make that happen and see how good I can really be. I am going to be keeping a blog about my training this time and posting pics/video the whole way through. One of my goals is to see how much I can fit into a 170 lbs frame and try out for the next 185/170/155 TUF show. (155 might require cutting off an arm >.>) Once I get the site up and going, I'll post a link of it on here if anyone's interested.

[Chips]

I fight pro now. I am 4-2 professionally and was 10-1 amateur. I have only fought on smaller, regional cards to this date though. I am gearing up training camp right now to make a full commitment run. I haven't had one camp yet where I wasn't distracted by other things and now I have the opportunity to make that happen and see how good I can really be. I am going to be keeping a blog about my training this time and posting pics/video the whole way through. One of my goals is to see how much I can fit into a 170 lbs frame and try out for the next 185/170/155 TUF show. (155 might require cutting off an arm >.>) Once I get the site up and going, I'll post a link of it on here if anyone's interested.

Me and a couple of my friends that train are also going to be trying out for the next 170/155 season of tuf, suppose I might see you there.

[tyven]

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