The MMA Thread of 2009-Forever

**noblemountain** · 2012-12-31 21:42

I guess I was taking it from a "if they died tomorrow" scenario in my head. In which I wouldn't put them past anyone on that list yet. They aren't far...just saying they're not there yet. Comparing past people is tough because the sport has evolved so much and the people in the sport have as well. I would put Couture on that list because of what he did when he did it...it doesn't mean I think he could beat most of the current heavy's even in his prime.

**Matthias** · 2012-12-31 21:46

they're certainly two of the most talented hw's of all time, if not simply the two most talented. cain really reminds me of a prime fedor, versatile, dangerous anywhere, very stoic "all-business" demeanor while he does his work, very technical ground & pound. and jds can stand and trade with the best we've seen.

the only two people out there right now that i can think of that i think will present a real challenge to either of them are cormier and jon jones, once he enters the hw as he has said he planned. and really i think you throw a really good wrestler at jon jones, they will be able to neutralize alot of his invincibility, and both cormier and cain are very good wrestlers.

**noblemountain** · 2012-12-31 21:59

205 usually has the best wrestlers simply because there are far and few between Super Heavy's in the world. I think he'll be alright as long as he bulks up a little. He could make for some really interesting fights too. I think Cormier would be a great next fight for JDS...feed Cain Ubereem if he wins his next fight.

**Andalusian girls** · 2012-12-31 22:05

Overeem is the most talented pure striker in the division but his gas tank, chin, and heart remain terrible questions (and he's a better kickboxer than MMA striker he likes turtling up behind those big gloves), even so he has enough power and striking diversity to knock out anyone if they let him

Jones would get tooled in the heavyweight division i imagine, his massive reach and size advantages heavily negated and he's be the weaker fighter for the first time in his career.

Cormier is awesome would love to see him in there. spectacular wrestler and his boxing is coming along

Barnett still has an outside shot at contention as well i think, best jits in the division along with Werdum and Mir and his striking is better than it's ever been. with a broken hand he managed to stand and be competitive with Cormier even rocking Daniel p good at one point

after that, sheeeeeit. Werdum is a bad mother but he flopped his way to an uuggggllllyyyy loss against Overeem last year and doesn't have the wrestling to dictate to Cain or JDS where the fight goes. Carwin has enough power and wrasslin to keep anyone up at night but the Brock Lesnar heart attack + injury + looking rusty as shit against Dos Santos did him no favors. if he does get back in mid-2013 he'll have fought once since July, 2010, boy is rusty and is gonna remain rusty. Struve has a lot of solid wins for a 24 year old but boy he must enjoy getting punched in the head because he really doesn't do much to prevent it.

**Xno Kappa** · 2012-12-31 22:26

Originally Posted by Andalusian girls

Overeem is the most talented pure striker in the division but his gas tank, chin, and heart remain terrible questions (and he's a better kickboxer than MMA striker he likes turtling up behind those big gloves), even so he has enough power and striking diversity to knock out anyone if they let him

It's not even a question lol. We know he has shitty cardio, a glass jaw, and no heart.

**Matthias** · 2012-12-31 22:36

Originally Posted by Andalusian girls

Overeem is the most talented pure striker in the division

dude not even close, he is so overrated even as just a striker. he's good with knees in the clinch but that's really about it, he doesn't have the consistent knock out rate that the really great strikers have had. he has the strength to do it, especially after his miraculous bulking up started, but he's not what i'd call a really technical striker as is jds and as was mirko filipovic. i keep thinking back to that fight with werdum, where he as actually losing the standup exchanges... yeah he's really not a great striker.

**noblemountain** · 2012-12-31 22:39

You fuckers watch Glory on cbs sports right now if you wanna see real striking.

**Andalusian girls** · 2013-01-01 00:29

Originally Posted by Hirokei Kiaza

It's not even a question lol. We know he has shitty cardio, a glass jaw, and no heart.

came back from a knockdown against Saki to finish him, got knocked down three times by Hari and kept getting back up, knocked down by Bonjasky and got back up to finish the fight. the jaw is nothing special (but he recovers pretty well), and the cardio seems dependent on horse steroids, but he's definitely a tougher dude than he was as a young man, shown a lot of heart during his kickboxing career

Originally Posted by Matthias

dude not even close, he is so overrated even as just a striker. he's good with knees in the clinch but that's really about it, he doesn't have the consistent knock out rate that the really great strikers have had. he has the strength to do it, especially after his miraculous bulking up started, but he's not what i'd call a really technical striker as is jds and as was mirko filipovic. i keep thinking back to that fight with werdum, where he as actually losing the standup exchanges... yeah he's really not a great striker.

you don't become a K-1 Grand Prix champion without being a damn fine striker. 1-1 with Badr Hari, beat Spong, beat Texeira, beat Aerts x2, beat Saki (tho a crippled Saki)

he won the standup exchanges with Werdum. people expected him to do better but A) Werdum is a much improved striker look at how badly he tooled Russow + Big Foot and + Big Country B) Werdum flopped to the ground constantly and dove for silly takedowns. Alistair never got comfortable, and he did get lazy letting Werdum flurry on him at times when he expected a takedown, but otherwise did enough to carry an easy unanimous decision against a guy who has only ever been finished by an unknown JDS that was disregarded

and he's excellent with knees in the clinch or at range, has the best midkick of any heavyweight around, throws the tight Thai guard up well to avoid most punishment + can explode out of it with beautiful hooks from either hand.

there's no question in my mind he'd win a striking match against any heavyweight in the UFC, Cain and JDS would be embarrassed in K-1, but smaller gloves make chin + heart more important (huge edges to JDS here) + Cain should be able to ground him to death. for the record pick both of them in an MMA match but he could derail either one, better chance against JDS

**Andalusian girls** · 2013-01-01 00:30

look i don't even like the guy but he dispensed with Lesnar like he was trash (Brock gave Cain a much tougher fight) and easily beat Werdum who is what, the 5th ranked heavyweight in the world at worst ? the hype around him got insane but he isn't some can Cain and JDS can look past

**noblemountain** · 2013-01-01 00:54

^ Agree with everything there. He is also a freak of nature, like Brock, who doesn't have to hit you flush or with great technique to knock you the fuck out because he's filled with the rage of a thousand roiders.

**noblemountain** · 2013-01-01 01:00

I have about 100 "filled with the rage of" jokes in my head and that one sounded best.

**Xno Kappa** · 2013-01-01 01:10

K-1 credentials don't necessarily translate into awesome MMA striking, Overeem has the head movement and footwork of an elephant. His entire defense is based on putting up huge gloves in front of him, which is obviously not viable in MMA. Spong basically rocked him with a solid jab, imagine four ounce gloves.

Cain and JDS would be embarrased in K-1? That's a dumbass statement. I bet Overroid would be embarrased in any American wrestling tourney against Cain. I bet Overroid would be embarrased in a boxing match against JDS.

And let's not get into the whole MMAth nonsense on who did better against Brock as some kind of litmus test. This is BG, keep your Sherdog nonsense over there.

**Matthias** · 2013-01-01 01:11

Originally Posted by Andalusian girls

you don't become a K-1 Grand Prix champion without being a damn fine striker. 1-1 with Badr Hari, beat Spong, beat Texeira, beat Aerts x2, beat Saki (tho a crippled Saki)

uh yeah actually you do. the best strikers are in mma, not k-1. someone like anderson silva could go to k-1 and make it look like amateur night.

Originally Posted by Andalusian girls

he won the standup exchanges with Werdum. people expected him to do better but A) Werdum is a much improved striker look at how badly he tooled Russow + Big Foot and + Big Country B) Werdum flopped to the ground constantly and dove for silly takedowns. Alistair never got comfortable, and he did get lazy letting Werdum flurry on him at times when he expected a takedown, but otherwise did enough to carry an easy unanimous decision against a guy who has only ever been finished by an unknown JDS that was disregarded

he did not win the standup exchanges with werdum. werdum pressed harder, was more aggressive, stringing combinations together better. look at the fight stats, werdum outlanded overeem almost completely across the board.

Originally Posted by Andalusian girls

and he's excellent with knees in the clinch, has the best midkick of any heavyweight around, throws the tight Thai guard up well to avoid most punishment + can explode out of it with beautiful hooks from either hand.

he's good with knees and he does have a good midkick, i'll give you that. but his hands suck. they're strong but that's really about it. when he said he could beat the klitchkos (sp?) i just about died laughing.

Originally Posted by Andalusian girls

there's no question in my mind he'd win a striking match against any heavyweight in the UFC, Cain and JDS would be embarrassed in K-1,

you've got to be kidding me. jds vs. overeem is likely to be that standing strikefest, and overeem is going to be destroyed. jds is faster, hits harder despite his much smaller size, has a helluva chin, and is far more technical in his combinations and footwork. i daresay even cain would likely beat overeem in a standup exchange; he's actually a damn good boxer especially considering he started as a wrestler. you watch the combinations he put together for his fights with big nog, lesnar, and now even his rematch with jds. the fluidity with which one punch followed the next, and how he flowed in and out of range, was actually very technically sound. that big shot in the first round crippled jds; it would completely finish overeem.

overeem on the other hand... he's just big... and that's it. he has nowhere near the speed and technical prowess that either jds, cain, or many of the other great strikers in mma like anderson silva have. he strings together a bunch of knockouts against cans bigger than anything fedor's been accused of and all of a sudden he's this elite striker, 'the best striker in mma' give me a freakin' break.

**Andalusian girls** · 2013-01-01 01:14

there are no words

**Matthias** · 2013-01-01 01:15

Originally Posted by Hirokei Kiaza

K-1 credentials don't necessarily translate into awesome MMA striking, Overeem has the head movement and footwork of an elephant. His entire defense is based on putting up huge gloves in front of him, which is obviously not viable in MMA. Spong basically rocked him with a solid jab, imagine four ounce gloves.

i don't understand why people have such a hard time understanding this. k-1 is not the standard for elite striking. and i'm not hating on strikers, if anything i prefer them. watching mirko filipovic's highlight reals of head kicks never gets old, and people like him, anderson silva, and lyoto machida are among my all-time favorite fighters. but to say k-1 striking = elite striking period... yeah no.

**Xno Kappa** · 2013-01-01 01:16

I really don't get the Overeem hype. It has to be some kind of closet homosexual fantasy with muscles. It's like his time in Pride magically disappeared and he miraculously gained 60 pounds of muscle and trained his heart and chin.

**Matthias** · 2013-01-01 01:22

Originally Posted by Hirokei Kiaza

I really don't get the Overeem hype. It has to be some kind of closet homosexual fantasy with muscles. It's like his time in Pride magically disappeared and he miraculously gained 60 pounds of muscle and trained his heart and chin.

in general when dana white tirades against non-ufc fighters i roll my eyes but in this case i'd have to agree, i think a lot of the rankers just wanted to put someone non-ufc in there. he suddenly gains what... 20? 30? 40? pounds of muscle, people out there put together highlight reels of overeem destroying a bunch of nobodies, and he starts showing up on the fringes of various publications' top 10 rankings, and all of a sudden he's mma's best kept secret.

**Andalusian girls** · 2013-01-01 01:29

Originally Posted by Hirokei Kiaza

K-1 credentials don't necessarily translate into awesome MMA striking, Overeem has the head movement and footwork of an elephant. His entire defense is based on putting up huge gloves in front of him, which is obviously not viable in MMA. Spong basically rocked him with a solid jab, imagine four ounce gloves.

Cain and JDS would be embarrased in K-1? That's a dumbass statement. I bet Overroid would be embarrased in any American wrestling tourney against Cain. I bet Overroid would be embarrased in a boxing match against JDS.

And let's not get into the whole MMAth nonsense on who did better against Brock as some kind of litmus test. This is BG, keep your Sherdog nonsense over there.

lawlz still think bringing up sherdog is the worst insult around eh darlin

regardless, K-1 striking does usually translate into awesome MMA striking. Hunt, Cro Cop, Overeem. p much all the serious players that made the switch are real good strikers. ain't any example of that not being the case. but you are right, theoretically it could be. Cain and JDS have zero head movement as well if you've ever cared to notice. striking in the heavyweight division is pretty damn bad technically.

and, it's a true statement, they would be. they are mediocre kickboxers. you are right Overeem would be embarrassed in a wrestling match with Cain which is why if you can get past your blinding nerd rage you'll see that i picked Cain in their potential fight, because, of his wrestling.

fighters change, pretending he's the same fighter he was in Pride as a LHW is full retard. he's thrown on 60 pounds of shark steroids and has more top 10 wins as a heavyweight than he ever had as a LHW, and is exponentially more successful in K-1 than he used to be. ain't the same fighter, even if it's just the size and moving to a far less talented division, it matters

now if you can remember all the way back to oh 7 or 8 posts ago i was the one to bring up his chin and cardio and heart. i remember how he quit on Shogun and Lil Nog after getting cracked hard, i remember Liddell breaking his face, how Arona ground him into dust

but what are you people saying, he's a can ? Werdum, #5 fighter in the world. if you think Werdum won that fight by flopping around and pitter-patter punches you need to get your fucking head examined. Lesnar, top 10 as well, lost every second of the fight. Overeem is a top 10 fighter in the division and more of a danger to the top guys than say Mir or Struve are. Overeem ain't that good but the division sucks

**noblemountain** · 2013-01-01 01:30

I am definitely not on the Overeem hype train. I am not really a fan of his at all, but to say his striking is terrible is just silly. His striking is based on using his massive physique and there's nothing wrong with that. If you really do think that the best strikers in the world are in MMA...I have zero words. That is the most dff thing I've ever heard. (making that dumb fight fan in this thread, deal with it.)

**Matthias** · 2013-01-01 01:32

Originally Posted by Andalusian girls

Cain and JDS have zero head movement as well if you've ever cared to notice.

...

...

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Cain... zero head movement?

...

k moving on.

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