Fully meritted Focalization vs. Elemental Seal

[Omniyoji]

Sorry but that was in 2005 and I was still playing on my PS2 ._.

Also for Sifer who asked for resistances:

spehcal target elemental damage reduction - Killing Ifrit

regarding enfeebles: weren't there a lot of pics here on BG of people sleeping high level stuff with ES Sleep on melee jobs w/ a gimp blm sub?

[Virtuous Saint]

is it possible gods have some sort of permanent Bar effect on as opposed to a resist trait for things like Silence? cause if I recall correctly with a Bar spell active it would just increase resistance to it, like Suzaku having an innate Bar Silence trait possibly? I don't recall seeing the Resist! message while having barspells active but I could be wrong.

Actually that could be possible I suppose, maybe more so than what I suggested. Obviously Suzaku has no 'Resist Silence Trait' but what you are saying is possible; Barsilence doesn't result in 'Resist! Target resists the spell., like you said.

[Virtuous Saint]

i've been 75 blm a long time, and have never seen any resists on *enfeebles* from any mobs without a particular resistance.

having done x's knife 40~ times for example, were sleepga won't land without ES, and having 100% accuracy with ES sleepga on all three mithras every single time, similiarly for the 2nd blm in the group. you'd have thought that if there was a 95% cap we'd have seen at least 1 resist in our 40runsx2 casts each x 3 targets, 0/240? resists. k.

elemental magic i can't speak for though

I understand what you are saying, but we have people who don't even know that ES > nuke can be resisted, that is how rare it is. For all we know you have a 99% chance of landing sleep on those.

[Sifer]

Sorry but that was in 2005 and I was still playing on my PS2 ._.

Also for Sifer who asked for resistances:

spehcal target elemental damage reduction - Killing Ifrit

regarding enfeebles: weren't there a lot of pics here on BG of people sleeping high level stuff with ES Sleep on melee jobs w/ a gimp blm sub?

idk what that link is supposed to be for. that and resistance and damage reduction are 2 completely different things.

[foopy]

has anyone ever seen an ES elegy get resisted on cerb/khim?

i go naked brd/blm and i've never been resisted once. though its a very small sample size (100-ish).

if it were closer to "95%", i figure i would have seen it once by now. i can go fight lv1 bees with 370+acc and i'll get a whiff within 5mins.

loleyeballing, but i can't recall any brd in my LS getting resisted on ES elegy on cerb/khim.

[Suiram]

ghosts take reduced damage from all damage I believe. Bombs im not too sure about, I know they have high magic resistance to all elements but fire, cant say I've tested it in the last 4 or so years tho (cant say I understood magic resistance too well back then). Sandworm i'll take your word for it. still not enough mobs tho, I'll try to ES nuke some stuff tomorrow prolly and see what happens.

I'm wrong, I think, actually.

Went to test on ghost and it seems to be a forced 1/2 or greater resist for blizzard. At least the damage is calculated before MAB (as resists are) and not after (as shell is, and damage cut on mobs that have uniform damage cut like weapons).

Also, for what it's worth, I ESed my first bliz3 cast and got a further resist lol, doing 1/4 damage instead of the 1/2 (which I got on my 2nd non-ESed cast lol).

[Virtuous Saint]

I'm wrong, I think, actually.

Went to test on ghost and it seems to be a forced 1/2 or greater resist for blizzard. At least the damage is calculated before MAB (as resists are) and not after (as shell is, and damage cut on mobs that have uniform damage cut like weapons).

Also, for what it's worth, I ESed my first bliz3 cast and got a further resist lol, doing 1/4 damage instead of the 1/2 (which I got on my 2nd non-ESed cast lol).

lol, exactly.

[Suiram]

What I meant was that rather than what I had thought, which was an ice-only 50% damage cut (calculated same as shell as uniform damage cuts are for mobs like weapons, ghrahs, etc.) it's actually a forced resist. For practical purposes this has the same effect (don't use thunder/ice on bombs), but for the question of how Macc works it's an important distinction.

[pchan]

Well first thing's first, ES again, is not 100%. Secondly PLDs do not 'resist sleep' they merely posses 'resist sleep trait' the only time a PLD will resist sleep because it is a PLD is when you see 'Resist! The Aw'aern resists the spell! Dark resistant enemies resist it due to dark resistance which is exactly what sky gods have overly large amounts of. Basically what you have in sky gods are NMs that have extremely high elemental resistance, but have 1 resistance that is not nearly as high as all of the others. If anything I would assume that there could be a 'cap' set on certain spells for example Suzaku vs. silence. No matter how much magic acc you have, you can't exceed this cap, say 20% chance to land silence on Suzaku and once you attain that you can't have higher acc even with ES.

I think that's what IS the "resist - X" trait. It does not give +magic evasion to a spell, just lowers the cap at which it resists. This can explain PLD resisting sleep, thf resisting gravity and drk resisting parayze.

[Vail]

I've seen half resist of elegy/slow vs cerberus in about 60 kills I've only seen it 3 times (1st was a whm's ES slow being halved, then a brd's troub-es-elegy, then finally my own rdm's ES slow II halved) but I've never seen an outright resist vs cerberus

[pchan]

Suggested that on 1st page but supposedly pchan's 40 nin can ES sleep imps in mire. a 20 blm wont have half a 75 blm's accuracy (unless m.acc has a large base value).

anyway it can be easily tested by trying ES sleepga on imps in mire as 20 blm.

It's not supposedly it's fact. Both mnk75/blm and nin42/blm could, which discredits the macc +100% theory.

[Sifer]

I'm wrong, I think, actually.

Went to test on ghost and it seems to be a forced 1/2 or greater resist for blizzard. At least the damage is calculated before MAB (as resists are) and not after (as shell is, and damage cut on mobs that have uniform damage cut like weapons).

Also, for what it's worth, I ESed my first bliz3 cast and got a further resist lol, doing 1/4 damage instead of the 1/2 (which I got on my 2nd non-ESed cast lol).

Thats interesting.

I've seen half resist of elegy/slow vs cerberus in about 60 kills I've only seen it 3 times (1st was a whm's ES slow being halved, then a brd's troub-es-elegy, then finally my own rdm's ES slow II halved) but I've never seen an outright resist vs cerberus

I thought this would be happening to ppl's ele seal sleeps w/o them noticing. it only makes sense considering the half resist nukes.

anyway I'm going to bed. will prolly check this in the morning.

[Virtuous Saint]

Ya just because you don't see the spell fully resist doesn't mean it didn't get resisted, it might be a ridiculously low chance of full resist.

[pchan]

i've been 75 blm a long time, and have never seen any resists on *enfeebles* from any mobs without a particular resistance.

having done x's knife 40~ times for example, were sleepga won't land without ES, and having 100% accuracy with ES sleepga on all three mithras every single time, similiarly for the 2nd blm in the group. you'd have thought that if there was a 95% cap we'd have seen at least 1 resist in our 40runsx2 casts each x 3 targets, 0/240? resists. k.

elemental magic i can't speak for though

Look at it this way :

if you use ES sleep you'll get

p=95% chance of landing sleepgaII full duration
p*(1-p)=4.75% chance of landing for half duration
(1-p)^2=0.25% chance of outright resisting.

So the "true" landing rate would be 99.75%.

For elemental magic it's more obvious because you can tell right away if it's half resist. Comparatively, the chance to get an ES blizzard 4 resisted to 1/8 damage on a wild rabbit is (1-p)^3= 1/ 8,000.

[Virtuous Saint]

Look at it this way :

if you use ES sleep you'll get

p=95% chance of landing sleepgaII full duration
p*(1-p)=4.75% chance of landing for half duration
(1-p)^2=0.25% chance of outright resisting.

So the "true" landing rate would be 99.75%.

For elemental magic it's more obvious because you can tell right away if it's half resist. Comparatively, the chance to get an ES blizzard 4 resisted to 1/8 damage on a wild rabbit is (1-p)^3= 1/ 8,000.

This stuffs.

[Jeryhn]

Actually that could be possible I suppose, maybe more so than what I suggested. Obviously Suzaku has no 'Resist Silence Trait' but what you are saying is possible; Barsilence doesn't result in 'Resist! Target resists the spell., like you said.

This is actually pretty interesting to hear. It possibly isn't job traits, but a Barsilence-like effect that is a permanent stat on the part of Suzaku. I wouldn't be surprised if the game keeps track of Barstatus stats similarly to our Barelement stats (both of which can be enhanced by spells), but keeps them hidden, just like the game hides our Accuracy ratings.

They could then reserve immunity as a kind of job trait, where we don't "see" the immunity because there's no message saying: "Jeryhn casts Stun. The King Behemoth is immune to the effects of the spell!"

EDIT: I would kill for Barslow.

[Abulurd]

It's not supposedly it's fact. Both mnk75/blm and nin42/blm could, which discredits the macc +100% theory.

How do you figure?

It proves that yes, you can land things unresisted with very low MAcc (you try it often enough, you'll get non-ES ones to land; it won't be half the rate the ES ones land at, necessarily, either), but as far as "here, double your MAcc", it doesn't prove or disprove it. (The problems with proving or disproving it are that (1) the timer makes it take fucking forever and (2) a decent listing of "MAcc X = these rates for full/partial/no resist" doesn't exist.)

That said, if it's a constant "ES Sleep will land on Imps from someone going (melee job)/BLM20" thing (and not just a "I've seen it happen ten times in a row, so it must always work" thing), then maybe there's something to look at. (ES may behave differently on enfeebles from how it does with nukes. There's a reason I said the ES+enfeebles discussion deserves a dirty Sanchez earlier.)

[pchan]

How do you figure?

It proves that yes, you can land things unresisted with very low MAcc (you try it often enough, you'll get non-ES ones to land; it won't be half the rate the ES ones land at, necessarily, either), but as far as "here, double your MAcc", it doesn't prove or disprove it. (The problems with proving or disproving it are that (1) the timer makes it take fucking forever and (2) a decent listing of "MAcc X = these rates for full/partial/no resist" doesn't exist.)

That said, if it's a constant "ES Sleep will land on Imps from someone going (melee job)/BLM20" thing (and not just a "I've seen it happen ten times in a row, so it must always work" thing), then maybe there's something to look at. (ES may behave differently on enfeebles from how it does with nukes. There's a reason I said the ES+enfeebles discussion deserves a dirty Sanchez earlier.)

A mnk75/BLM37's only magic accuracy comes from his elemental skill (around 110) and stats. Imps have around 110 int, and my mnk/blm only has ~50 INT, so that's -60 penalty right there. You get a total of 50 TOTAL magic accuracy.... If ES does mac +100% you get 100 magic accurcacy, which is nowhere close enough to land anything on a level 80 mob.

A decent listing of "MAcc X = these rates for full/partial/no resist" doesn't exist.

it does. Magic accuracy only affects the landing rate of the spell (the rate a full damage spell, or full duration). The partial resist rates are a simple function of that.

[EternalSnow]

My friend was skulking with me and he resisted a ele seal 2. Sleep on a crab tht linked to us

[Abulurd]

A mnk75/BLM37's only magic accuracy comes from his elemental skill (around 110) and stats. Imps have around 110 int, and my mnk/blm only has ~50 INT, so that's -60 penalty right there. You get a total of 50 TOTAL magic accuracy.... If ES does mac +100% you get 100 magic accurcacy, which is nowhere close enough to land anything on a level 80 mob.

No.

Just... no.

A Hume MNK75/BLM37's magic accuracy for Sleep:

* 105 from Enfeebling skill.
* 29 from INT.

There is no "negative MAcc for INT below your target". That's asinine, stupid, and whoever came up with that idea in the first place needs to be stabbed in the face with a hammer. What there is is MEva is based off of the stat from the spell, the elemental resistance for that spell, and possibly some hidden stat.

So we're looking at 134 MAcc in this case. With ES under this, that raises it to 268.

Meanwhile, we're probably looking at a "Dark Element/Black Magic" MEva for Imps somewhere in the neighborhood of 350. (That number was pulled entirely out of my ass, but based off of ~311 for a lv82 A+-rank skill [the dark element portion] + half of ~80 INT. By comparison, a lv82 Taru BLM/BLM would have somewhere around 85 INT, based off of the formulas used in the numerous stat calculators out there. I'd say that's a fair approximation for an Imp.) If there's a level adjustment as well, that would boost it to closer to 380. (This is probably making one too many unwarranted parallels to melee accuracy.)

This puts you somewhere between -80 and -110 for the difference between MAcc and MEva. If we continue with the (potentially ridiculous) comparisons to melee accuracy, that would give us a "magical hit rate" of between 20% and 35%.

At ES = +200% MAcc under this, you'd be between +20 and +50, for MHRs of between 85% and 100%.

It's an idea, anyway. I'm well aware it might not be right, but the whole "mobs have a fixed MEva, and your target's stats affect your MAcc" thing rubs me the wrong way in general. (Partly because going by "SE's coders are lazy" says it's wrong to begin with. The magic accuracy system would have started off substantially similar, if not identical other than choice of stats, to the melee and ranged accuracy system. Barring ninja modifications to it, or modifications that have been made that I haven't noticed any mention of, it still is.)