Augmenting and total gil on server

[Stellar]

Undoubtedly increases gil. Many more people are farming tabs which provide gil as well as tabs...

[Yugl]

here is the thinking on the debate. all items are gil, not items, so say flame ring costs 740k, Person A buys flame Flame ring (740k), augments, gets shit for the augment, so then NPCs the flame ring (740k) for 40k. How would that be shifting it all, the server loses 740k in item worth, but gains 40k for the 740k purchased off the AH. Then AH taxes take some out, but not all

Exactly what are you trying to say?

[Cantih]

here is the thinking on the debate. all items are gil, not items, so say flame ring costs 740k, Person A buys flame Flame ring (740k), augments, gets shit for the augment, so then NPCs the flame ring (740k) for 40k. How would that be shifting it all, the server loses 740k in item worth, but gains 40k for the 740k purchased off the AH. Then AH taxes take some out, but not all

We need a smiley for this situation.

This picture is the best I can do.

[Etice]

lol sorry about that, just trying to recap what was being thrown back and forth during everyone yelling at each other, basically what happens you NPC a bunch of items that sell on AH for a lot more than what they sell to NPC for?, sorry if anything is unclear just going off what happened in the LS while i was in xp party

[Eder]

I think FF population in general lack of economic sense, and the answer to OP's question is the gil count will increase no doubt. Let's assume the following 2 cases, should make the answer alot more cleaner.

Assuming in a simple economic environment you have only A person (the guy with Flame ring, who willing to sell his flame ring at a price of 500k) and B (the buyer who have 500k gil), given that no transaction cost (ie. tax), nor mishap to the item (ie nothing like accidentally tossed the flame ring.)

Before Augmenting System where introduced:

- person A want to sell Flame ring with a price tag of 500k
- person B want to pay for a Flame ring with 500k
- they trade with each other (remember assuming no tax is involved)
Result : Now Person B has own a flame ring, while Person A's gil has increased for 500k
No one is better off or worst off, the whole economic still only have 1 flame ring, and 500k gil floating around.

Now Case two- here is the change(s) when augmenting item is inducted:

- person A want to sell Flame ring with a price tag of 500k
- person B want to pay for a Flame ring with 500k
- they trade with each other (again, assuming no tax is involved)
- Person B went to trade in for augment, since we all know that SE's random generator fails when it comes to giving player good statues for the flame ring, he had no choice but to npc it for say, 20000G

Result: Now person B has lost a flame ring, but he gain 20,000G gil in his pocket, while person A still has his 500,000 gil from the trade with Person B. So, now the economic has 520,000G.

Therefore to answer OP's question - Augmenting system will increase the "gil" count in whole economic.

[Yugl]

We need a smiley for this situation.

This picture is the best I can do.

Oh so that's where that line is from. That sentence is so epic.

Edit: I don't think anyone can give a straight answer of whether or not the gil will increase or decrease. The NPC value of an item will increase the gil supply. The AH fees for adding additional items will decrease the supply (Note that I'm assuming FoV causes more items to appear on the AH than normal). There is also the question of whether FoV causes people to purchase more items from the NPC for synthesis. This last figure may be unclear, so let me explain this better:

Lets say there is an equipment that utilizes materials from an NPC (Aka people buy some of the materials for this armor from an NPC). Without FoV, you could argue that the already circulating armor stabilizes the market and creates less incentive for people to craft that specific armor. Now lets add in FoV. Some of that armor no longer remains in circulation and demand increases. This heightens the incentive to craft said item. This incentive leads to a greater amount of synthesis, which means a greater amount of people buying the synthesis material from the NPC. Thus, gil leaves the system because more synthesis occurring heightens buying from NPCs (And maybe travel expenses as well). I don't know the net effect of this since I'm unfamiliar with armor crafts (Alchemist here), but it could have an effect.

In short, the question is pointless and serves no purpose. FoV is what it is, and finding out the answer to this debate does nothing.

[Skjie]

In the short run, there will be inflation as crafters pull prices up to capitalize on the suddenly higher demand, but in the long run the market will correct itself. There are not any major new sources of gil fountains, people will give up on augmenting and more people will go back to crafting driving the prices back down somewhat.

[Drako]

I think FF population in general lack of economic sense, and the answer to OP's question is the gil count will increase no doubt. Let's assume the following 2 cases, should make the answer alot more cleaner.

Assuming in a simple economic environment you have only A person (the guy with Flame ring, who willing to sell his flame ring at a price of 500k) and B (the buyer who have 500k gil), given that no transaction cost (ie. tax), nor mishap to the item (ie nothing like accidentally tossed the flame ring.)

Before Augmenting System where introduced:

- person A want to sell Flame ring with a price tag of 500k
- person B want to pay for a Flame ring with 500k
- they trade with each other (remember assuming no tax is involved)
Result : Now Person B has own a flame ring, while Person A's gil has increased for 500k
No one is better off or worst off, the whole economic still only have 1 flame ring, and 500k gil floating around.

Now Case two- here is the change(s) when augmenting item is inducted:

- person A want to sell Flame ring with a price tag of 500k
- person B want to pay for a Flame ring with 500k
- they trade with each other (again, assuming no tax is involved)
- Person B went to trade in for augment, since we all know that SE's random generator fails when it comes to giving player good statues for the flame ring, he had no choice but to npc it for say, 20000G

Result: Now person B has lost a flame ring, but he gain 20,000G gil in his pocket, while person A still has his 500,000 gil from the trade with Person B. So, now the economic has 520,000G.

Therefore to answer OP's question - Augmenting system will increase the "gil" count in whole economic.

the problem is depending on AH tax (if AH TAX > npc price) we see a gil loss. Because when he npcs it, the item is gone, obviously, after he gets a new one he paid for the AH taxes.

AH is like 1% right? i think most itens higher than 500k will have gil loss (5k AH TAX and most itens dont sell higher than 5k to npc)

[Sehi]

since money does not enter or leave this economy via any way other than npc or player bannings, then augments in no way can take money out of the economy. The only money exchanged via npc method with augment is

1. Money earned for farming tabs
2. Money aquired for selling items to npc
3 Auction house taxes.

I think it would be safe to say that a few crafters selling items on AH wouldnt cancel out hundered of people farming tabs and npcing gears.

What people need to remember is that just because gil isnt in your own hands, doesnt mean its not in someone else's

If anything due to items becoming ex that werent before, the market supply of items will decrease and cause their value to increase which we are already witnessing. If item augments stay as popular as they are now, this inflation of items will probably only increase.

[Mistress Stowastiq]

I am horrible at math. disclaimer.

But can we put this into the equation?

.Auction house fees.
.Profit for the person selling the item on the auction.
.Profit for those who sell farmed/grown/HELM/ Mob Dropped crafting materials including crystals to crafters who do not farm for their own supplies.
.Also people are starting to dysynth augment items. If there is any materials that can be sold or reused after dysynth, would that also go into the equation?

[Eder]

@ Skjie, i think OP is concerning about the total increase in gil count on the market, not as much as the price change of certain item due to new added content.

And yes when I was building the model of personA/B, was try to make ease to illustrate the concept of, like other players here said, the "total gil" of the market do or does not increase because of this recently update, therefore I intentionally omit all other variables.

Mistress Stowastiq, I think it's too hard to factor in all the "maths" to form a equation. It's simply because players' behaviour is most unpredictable, if everyone in this game is rationale, then we will not have slightly/gimped player thread here. And allow me to use another example, why do we even try to augment our items at the first place? People trading their hagun, Dusk+1, they get attack +5 dusk+1, or D+2 on their shining Hagun, but why? it's because of "utility", which also known as "e-peen", but how do we measure this unit? i don't think anyone can, because it's a rather intangible unit. But in general (after adding in ALL the factors that Stowastiq mentioned, as well as any unforeseen upcoming events coming up by SE) you can always safely assume that the gil count is increasing all the time, because if the gil count is going down, we will eventually ended up trading our hauby+1 with crystals, because gils have disappeared!

[Mistress Stowastiq]

@ Skjie, i think OP is concerning about the total increase in gil count on the market, not as much as the price change of certain item due to new added content.

And yes when I was building the model of personA/B, was try to make ease to illustrate the concept of, like other players here said, the "total gil" of the market do or does not increase because of this recently update, therefore I intentionally omit all other variables.

Mistress Stowastiq, I think it's too hard to factor in all the "maths" to form a equation. It's simply because players' behaviour is most unpredictable, if everyone in this game is rationale, then we will not have slightly/gimped player thread here. And allow me to use another example, why do we even try to augment our items at the first place? People trading their hagun, Dusk+1, they get attack +5 dusk+1, or D+2 on their shining Hagun, but why? it's because of "utility", which also known as "e-peen", but how do we measure this unit? i don't think anyone can, because it's a rather intangible unit. But in general (after adding in ALL the factors that Stowastiq mentioned, as well as any unforeseen upcoming events coming up by SE) you can always safely assume that the gil count is increasing all the time, because if the gil count is going down, we will eventually ended up trading our hauby+1 with crystals, because gils have disappeared!

Makes more sense to me in words instead of mathies, thank you . As a major crafter, it always balances out in time when I am patient at least. Glad you brought up utility and epeen. It reminded me of a lesson I learned when studying to get my series 7 license, that the market is heavily influenced by human emotion and trends.

[Spider-Dan]

the problem is depending on AH tax (if AH TAX > npc price) we see a gil loss. Because when he npcs it, the item is gone, obviously, after he gets a new one he paid for the AH taxes.

AH is like 1% right? i think most itens higher than 500k will have gil loss (5k AH TAX and most itens dont sell higher than 5k to npc)

AH tax should be more than offset by the extra gil that is created via completing FoV training (which is required to earn enough tabs to do the fight).

Net result to the economy is +gil, but as has been stated, same (or more) gil + less items = inflation city. And I doubt that union will create enough items to compensate for all the items (read: the crafting mats used to create the gear) that are now being destroyed via failed FoV augments.

[Karbuncle]

I don't know about all this jibber jabber, but i do know i just NPC'd a pair of Barone Cosc. for 6.8k Cause of a STR-1 DEX+1 VIT-1 "Random" augment.

Which effectively put 6.8k into circulation, and -50k more out of my pocket into someone else for a pair of Barone Pants ._.

[Gere]

Don't forget that about 5.1k left the economy due to AH fees from the person you initially bought the pants from.

[Yugl]

I like how people bring up stuff that's already been mentioned. Makes this topic even more pointless.

[Argettio]

Augmenting make you poor, not the server... the end?

[Plow]

It's quite simple, really.

Items of value are being removed from the market, gil is not.


Less items + same amount of gil = inflation.

Really, really simple shit.


Will there be literally more gil in the economy? Maybe. While an AH fee is spent when an item is sold, it's spent rather it sells or not. When you npc an item, it's never getting another ah fee, ever, no matter what.

But really, that's all beside the point. Gil is certainly not leaving the system through the augmenting system, but items most definitely are.

[Darus Grey]

That's supply/demand, not inflation.

[Plow]

That's supply/demand, not inflation.

...


less supply + more demand creates what again?


even though I wasn't going into demand, I was going on supply vs raw quantity of money, there are subtle differences if you realize what I'm saying