NIN/RDM vs NIN/DRK

[richardd]

I wish I had the opportunity to fight PW before they nerfed him =/.

And all of this Nin talk is making me wanna bust out the nin again..

Oh, and unrelated question, but I always assumed the answer was no: Is PW last form (dvergr) stunnable? I assumed lolno, but didnt get to test last time and dont seem to remember in any of my records from previous kills.

nope, even with blade bash/whatever. he was just a bitch. but /drk is still great even when mobs cant be stunned like Odin for example. but just having them stunned makes it more convenient for everyone else.

[Spider-Dan]

Put it this way: there is less separation between NIN and PLD tanks than there is between WHM and RDM healers, or any two DDs in the game.

I would disagree with that.

So is this the part where we break down the difference between WHM and RDM, or the difference between SAM and any other DD?

The term I used was less separation.

[Dramafinderftw]

soo uh neo gonna stream your LS's PW?

[Neosutra]

soo uh neo gonna stream your LS's PW?

Fuck no lol.

I will however be providing per form HP and damage dealt parses for PW and the lamps, alot with Fraps vids after the fight.

[Dramafinderftw]

;; prz?

[Tsuko_Asura]

RDM falls far behind in this kind of situation. RDM is great when everything is fine and dandy, but if you need control of a mob right now (because of hate issues or after the initial pull) then NIN and PLD are much better equipped to deal with the situation. Maybe even NIN more so because a landed Stun stops the mob cold even if just for a second, but that can mean a lot sometimes.

Even if I didn't completely disagree with your analysis, if for some reason you need to have something look at you right now and have no prior influence on the target, Chainspell and Sleep II do the job quite nicely. But really, when is that ever the case? The only thing I can associated with what you're suggesting is if you were to die, and needed to catch back up to your co-tank, in which case the urgency is really being exaggerated. A few spell-cycles and you'll be right back up there with your Paladin, and they should really be able to handle themselves for that minute or two.

[ringthree]

Even if I didn't completely disagree with your analysis, if for some reason you need to have something look at you right now and have no prior influence on the target, Chainspell and Sleep II do the job quite nicely. But really, when is that ever the case? The only thing I can associated with what you're suggesting is if you were to die, and needed to catch back up to your co-tank, in which case the urgency is really being exaggerated. A few spell-cycles and you'll be right back up there with your Paladin, and they should really be able to handle themselves for that minute or two.

The explanation for the difference was in the very next paragraph.

I think some of the disagreement within this discussion can be found based on the situation that different people find themselves in. If you know you are going to have highly skilled support with you all the time for all fights, then you create a different set of assumptions than if you are used to low-manning things or having to hold things while people arrive. In general, I would much rather be prepared for the later because the former generally equalizes the quality of the jobs for tanking. To me, in situations with less support for whatever reason, PLD wins out. If you don't experience this kind of situation very often then you may have a different preference.

I think the important thing to remember for those that are damning the other sides choices is not so much that there is a universally correct choice, but that different situations often times demands different tactics. If you start from this idea, it becomes much more difficult to offensively criticize the choices of others.

[Neosutra]

I dont really like live streams of anything:

Streams are always crap. Shitty vid quality while 1000 people I dont know spam chat, nothing of value is added.

High Quality vids with detailed strats used and parses per phase = helpful information.

[Yugl]

I dont really like live streams of anything:

Streams are always crap. Shitty vid quality while 1000 people I dont know spam chat, nothing of value is added.

High Quality vids with detailed strats used and parses per phase = helpful information.

And the spam tells of FINDING NEO!

[Tsuko_Asura]

The explanation for the difference was in the very next paragraph.

Even in the case of low-man and holding, I don't see where your example comes into play.

Regardless, I've never heard someone suggest that a Paladin is more suited for holding or surviving in times where resources are scarce. You are aware of a nifty little job trait called Fast Cast, right? How about Stoneskin? Convert? I am in full understanding of your position on Ninja vs. Paladin, and I hope you're in full understanding of my knowing that Paladin is generally the best option for tanking, but I really don't see how you can seriously suggest that Paladin is in any way more durable than Red Mage. At best, I'd be willing to accept that a sloppy Paladin has an edge over a sloppy Red Mage, purely because of all of the on-a-whim job abilities you have at your disposal to pick up the slack, but if we're assuming both players on are the top of their game(I sure as hell know I am, and I'm not about to discuss this in terms of someone else playing the class - I don't care about them), there's no contest.

Also, Sentinel is overrated

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b9...230_061953.jpg

[ringthree]

Even in the case of low-man and holding, I don't see where your example comes into play.

Regardless, I've never heard someone suggest that a Paladin is more suited for holding or surviving in times where resources are scarce. You are aware of a nifty little job trait called Fast Cast, right? How about Stoneskin? Convert? I am in full understanding of your position on Ninja vs. Paladin, and I hope you're in full understanding of my knowing that Paladin is generally the best option for tanking, but I really don't see how you can seriously suggest that Paladin is in any way more durable than Red Mage. At best, I'd be willing to accept that a sloppy Paladin has an edge over a sloppy Red Mage, purely because of all of the on-a-whim job abilities you have at your disposal to pick up the slack, but if we're assuming both players on are the top of their game(I sure as hell know I am, and I'm not about to discuss this in terms of someone else playing the class - I don't care about them), there's no contest.

Also, Sentinel is overrated

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b9...230_061953.jpg

This is the second time in this thread that you either completely misread what I said or are only glancing at it.

I never said anything about Red Mage survivability. I just said when it comes to getting initial hate or recovering from hate loss that PLD and NIN are better than RDM by a good margin. Stun and Flash have equally high amounts of initial hate, and NIN can compound that with Yonin. They both also have JA's with high amounts of immediate hate. While RDM does have Chainspell to build hate rapidly, they still must cast several times to get up to Stun and Flash. This is besides the obvious drawback of it being on a two hour recast.

[Tsuko_Asura]

You drastically underestimate Chainspell, two-hour timer or not. Capping CE and VE in ~29 seconds is easy. And I'm still scratching my head as to when you need to do such urgent catching up.

[Fridell]

And the spam tells of FINDING NEO!

I see what you did thar!

[Tekki]

I should go back and read the rest of this thread later....

[Xavier]

You drastically underestimate Chainspell, two-hour timer or not. Capping CE and VE in ~29 seconds is easy. And I'm still scratching my head as to when you need to do such urgent catching up.

Hate reset, when you've died, etc.

Chainspells great. But odds are if you've used it, and die, you aren't going to have access to it again that fight. (Medium level of sarcasm here).

-------------------------------

As someone who has had a lot of experience competing against a handful of JP players who excel at camping and claiming HNMs with 3-4 people and being able to hold them seemingly forever with 2 RDM/NIN and a BRD, I wouldn't argue that RDM/NIN has a vastly higher survivability rate over PLD when the party is lacking proper support jobs/players.

A PLD is just not going to last very long without march, haste, proper enfeebles, etc. Especially true the more difficult the encounter. RDM shine low-man, PLD shine on more difficult (and therefore more likely to have a proper party setup) content, and NIN/DRK on anything stunable. I don't have much else to say about it. Any of the three can be competitive in any situation, but those are their specialties, in my opinion.

[Zazel]

lolwut?

4 min Fafnir? Atonement sux? Nin > Pld because nin can solo better (on stuff that pld cant pld/rdm I assume you are talking about)? There are some smart ninjas in here with some good points to be made on emnity generation and damage reduction, you are not one of them.

Yea, like you've actually tanked shit besides Odin or your 30sec PW. The good point made w/ enmity generated is already pointed out in Kaeko's live journal and does not need to be repeated here. I never said Nin > Pld because its not. Maybe on Tiamat but the same thing can be saide for Pld>Nin on Khim, DI etc.

But the main thing is majority of the tanks here besides a few have actually completed their tanking sets for certain jobs. I'm 90% done w/ a Spell Interrupt Ichi which would help out alot on Khim/DI when Ni is down and you "have" to get ichi. Missing Shadow pieces but will have them soon and I've been screwed out of 2x chances of Dring which would help out alot for -magic dmg. I don' mean to call you out but seriously, volume will be glad to let you compare your tanking skill on HNMs we claim.

But when it all comes down to it, support/co tank really decided how good one tank can be. But i'll gladly tank beside any PLD who think their atonement dmg will allow them to hold hate over me.

[Neosutra]

Yea, like you've actually tanked shit besides Odin or your 30sec PW. The good point made w/ enmity generated is already pointed out in Kaeko's live journal and does not need to be repeated here. I never said Nin > Pld because its not. Maybe on Tiamat but the same thing can be saide for Pld>Nin on Khim, DI etc.

Ive tanked every mob in the game, many times. Why do people think someone cant tank if they dont camp ground anymore? Did ground suddenly become hard?. The fact that I havent needed anything from 3 kings for a couple years now and have neither the interest nor time to bot against idiots for 3 hours a day doesnt degrade my performance on every other mob in the game, nor does it exclude the fact that I DID tank those NMs when I was still in those events.

Edited. Q.Q

[Zazel]

Made a long post, actually made sense XD. Deleted it cause it doesn't matter. I think I understand everyone's view on this but I honestly doubt that anything useful will come from this post or thread. I think it will inspire tanks to actually push and make something of theirselves. To be honest I don't care for your PLD skills or what not. I do think you make a good leader for HM and wish you luck on PW cause you'll provide some key parse/HQ vid/ and more understanding. There's not enough mobs in the game to decide what tank is best.

At the moment I'm 3/5 Usukane (missing 25 legs). HNM and RL stuff hurt me from getting it earlier. I was though 0/30ish I say around 45 on Usukane feet before they finally dropped. Would love to parse my Usukaneless Ninja vs any DD job you have. The main reason I enjoy and pump up Ninja is their usefulness in Meriting,Solo,Tanking which PLD does excel in 2/3 of them too. Either way, once there's some event where you can compare your tanking skill to another, you'll be one of the first peeps I'd want to challenge.

Either way the winner of this thread goes to "Support" being what decides the best tank

[Neosutra]

Fair enough, sorry for the arguement, gl with the game.

[Gustave]

And I was actually looking foward to the rest of this thread :/ Nah but really I co-tank with Zaz alot and I prefer Nin/drk or Nin/rdm over most any plds. I get to cure him for more hate without hurting his enmity building. He holds solid hate when I want to get some use out of Valor Surcoat... With him being able to build hate at will without cure cheating etc it allows me to step my hate up alot. There is no way I would be able to hold hate on force landing wyrms with a pld co-tank. Maybe when I complete my pld gear sets and experience. I will say that outside of a few mobs atonement dmg / mob tp is not worth it compared to what I could let my buff'd dd's do. Letting ours sams sneak attack tiamat without worry of roar comes to mind. GL with your PW neo.. when are you guys starting?