NIN/RDM vs NIN/DRK

[ringthree]

I agree with Max, and I will add that NIN hasn't really gotten a tanking-related gear update in years.

There are some Katana with enmity, and there have been pieces here and there, but NIN's still use Mermaid's Rings if they don't have Sattva Rings. They have nothing like the Iron Ram Lance to help deal with magic damage. They are still using Arhat's Gi when PLD has gotten like 4 new tanking bodies in the last year.

Sometimes it really feels like SE knows what they are doing when it comes to gear, but lately it just seems like they have reverted to 2004 and think that NIN is some kind of DD or something else. Fey Weapon augments kind of prove this.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Are you actually complaining about Arhat's Gi?

[Darlin]

Que for Richardd .....

[ringthree]

Are you actually complaining about Arhat's Gi?

I don't know what you are getting at.

Arhat's Gi is a fine piece of gear, but it is only one option (you can use that other Retsetsu or whatever for more enmity too), but those were added literally years ago.

There hasn't be anything new for NIN tanking gear in a long, long time. Time's change, it would be nice to have some other options.

It would especially be nice to have some options for melee damage to keep up with Atonement.

[Tsuko_Asura]

I agree that changes to Ninja are necessary, due to there being no benefit to using one on anything Atonement is an option against, but complaining about one of the best body pieces this game has to offer isn't the way to spark change. 9% PDT(not to mention the 6% from the head) is absurd.

[Meko]

I have to agree. It's Arhat's or nothing. The fay weapon is a joke. Making ninja mainhand that is uber fail. 31DMG in mh? Really? Thanks SE. They spend too much time buffing the PLD and SAM jobs to worry with NIN.

[Amastacia]

I agree that changes to Ninja are necessary, due to there being no benefit to using one on anything Atonement is an option against, but complaining about one of the best body pieces this game has to offer isn't the way to spark change. 9% PDT(not to mention the 6% from the head) is absurd.

There's no real detriment to using one either... on anything CoP and earlier when shadows stayed up and mobs stayed Stunned.

Bit of a shame there's been 2 expansions released since CoP, and not one of the HNMs added is remotely as NIN-friendly as they are PLD-friendly.

[ringthree]

I agree that changes to Ninja are necessary, due to there being no benefit to using one on anything Atonement is an option against, but complaining about one of the best body pieces this game has to offer isn't the way to spark change. 9% PDT(not to mention the 6% from the head) is absurd.

Trying to make something out of nothing is even more absurd. I am in no way saying that Arhat's is bad. I didn't say anything like that. I said it would be nice for NIN to have more options.

Decreased PDT (I like that abbreviation, btw) is nice but not perfect considering a NIN tank is based around avoiding damage instead of absorbing it. It would be nice to have better magic damage reduction options, among other things.

Fey Weapons as Meko stated, prove the problem that SE is having. They have Subtle Blow, Accuracy and Critical Hit Rate as some of their potential Augments, while PLD gets Enmity, Accuracy and Magic Dmg Taken -%. NIN really needs those Augments while PLD has access all of those traits in no small supply. I guess that Spell Interruption Rate down is nice, but it will never be able to equal a shield block preventing any interruption.

[Xavier]

Between NIN/DRK and NIN/RDM, NIN/DRK has always served a more practical benefit, assuming you are fighting something which you can freely stun away on.

As for PLD/NIN vs. NIN/DRK, I've tanked as both, and there is literally no difference in their ability to hold hate. A smart player on either job is going to be fine.

Survivability, however, has always been the dividing line between NIN and PLD tanking.

Back in 2005, when NIN was largely seen (my perception anyway) as the more dominant tank, it was because they were simply more efficient at staying alive. NIN had access to roughly the same amount of haste gear they do today (Panther+1, Dusk Gloves, Speed Belt, Haidate, Fuma), whereas PLD had barely any at all (Speed Belt).

It made PLD far more high maintenance than NIN, as they were forced to either blood tank as PLD/WAR (with flashy strategies like an Aerial Armor rotation), or go PLD/NIN, which generally caused you to need two BRDs and a RDM in the tank party. PLD/WAR required a lot of healing, PLD/NIN a lot of support. Meanwhile, a good NIN with close to the above gear mentioned could "get by" with haste, refresh, march and ballad.

The game has changed since then, however. Without much effort, a PLD/NIN can match a NIN in haste gear. PLD have, moreover, been given enhanced job abilities (Rampart was once garbage, Sentinel was so-so), Auto-Refresh (removing the necessity of ballad in most instances), Shield Mastery, Atonement, etc.

If both tanking jobs are capable of holding relatively equal hate, but one is entirely reliant on others to save itself when things go wrong, and the other is more than capable of entering a semi-god like mode to survive nearly anything temporarily, not to mention effectively doubling as an extra healer in the alliance, its not terribly difficult to understand why PLD became the preferred tank of FFXI.

If Square had -seriously- wanted to take away PLD's advantage in survivability, they would have given Yonin a -25% (or higher, why not) damage taken effect as well as the increased enmity, evasion and -crit% from enemies. Perhaps a very potent regen effect would have done the trick as well/instead.

I don't know. A lot of people seem happy about the new NIN abilities, but I don't think Yonin particularly addressed NIN's shortcomings. Hate has never been their problem.

[Tsuko_Asura]

There's no real detriment to using one either... on anything CoP and earlier when shadows stayed up and mobs stayed Stunned.

Bit of a shame there's been 2 expansions released since CoP, and not one of the HNMs added is remotely as NIN-friendly as they are PLD-friendly.

Not that I don't believe Ninja is a perfectly capable tank, but as things become easier and easier for us to kill, superfluous advantages in survivability and utility aren't really the issue. When Square gives the job some sort of Atonement-esque weapon skill, along with some means of compensation for no longer being able to swap in Terra's Staff, there will be a reason to use one in lieu of a Paladin.

Mind you, you know first-hand how enthusiastic I was about Red Mage tanking, but I have a firm grasp on the fact that the class belongs tossed in the Ninja-bin in the grand scheme of things.

[Tsuko_Asura]

I guess that Spell Interruption Rate down is nice, but it will never be able to equal a shield block preventing any interruption.

Err, if they tossed Ninja a few more SIR pieces, they'd be golden. No amount of shield skill can guarantee a spell will go off, while 100% interruption immunity can.

[ringthree]

If both tanking jobs are capable of holding relatively equal hate, but one is entirely reliant on others to save itself when things go wrong, and the other is more than capable of entering a semi-god like mode to survive nearly anything temporarily, not to mention effectively doubling as an extra healer in the alliance, its not terribly difficult to understand why PLD became the preferred tank of FFXI.

If Square had -seriously- wanted to take away PLD's advantage in survivability, they would have given Yonin a -25% (or higher, why not) damage taken effect as well as the increased enmity, evasion and -crit% from enemies. Perhaps a very potent regen effect would have done the trick as well/instead.

I don't know. A lot of people seem happy about the new NIN abilities, but I don't think Yonin particularly addressed NIN's shortcomings. Hate has never been their problem.

Completely 100% agree.

The thing that I have been pondering is if a tanking build with Katana and Dorado Sushi (maybe Marinara +1) and /WAR with Yonin could be viable. I highly suspect not, but it is something that I have pondered. One of the major problem is that NIN enfeebles get very little hate comparatively, and there is then little to bridge the gap between Provokes which are also very bad at holding hate.

[ringthree]

Err, if they tossed Ninja a few more SIR pieces, they'd be golden. No amount of shield skill can guarantee a spell will go off, while 100% interruption immunity can.

Hmmm, what kind of build would you suggest for this?

[Tsuko_Asura]

Hmmm, what kind of build would you suggest for this?

I wouldn't. Until its possible for Ninja to get 100%, I don't find it advantageous at all. Red Mage is a completetely different story, though. DA-crits for 400+ against Tiamat, and still getting Ichi off is beautiful.

EDIT: Hmm, if Aquaveil actually is 20%(I doubt its actually been tested), and as long as you have a Scholar in the party, it should be possible, now that I actually look at it. Full HQ Yasha, Druid's Rope, Magnetic Earring, Willpower Torque, Nikkarioe, and a few merits should put you at 100% with Aquaveil.

[Meko]

Completely 100% agree.

I also agree. The NIN can't evade enough and takes too much damage. I remember tanking Byakko as a taru ninja and Byakko would use Diaga or something that would wipe shadows. I would then go /ja "Pray" <me> irl in hopes that Claw Cyclone was not next up on his move list or that a BLM or DRK was about to stun. Evasion tanking is not even a factor in all of this because higher level mobs don't miss and aoe's don't miss. I think the issue with ninja lies between Ichi and Ni. That time between those 2 windows is where the ninja basically prays that they won't die. Lower HP, less defense based abilities (none to be exact) and the 100% reliant on blink being up makes the job a lesser tank.

[ringthree]

I wouldn't. Until its possible for Ninja to get 100%, I don't find it advantageous at all. Red Mage is a completetely different story, though. DA-crits for 400+ against Tiamat, and still getting Ichi off is beautiful.

Well, you said that they just need a few more SIR pieces to make it viable. So I was wondering what you had in mind. I never though much of it because I didn't think that NIN had close to enough SIR available to worry about it.

[Isiolia]

Fey Weapons as Meko stated, prove the problem that SE is having. They have Subtle Blow, Accuracy and Critical Hit Rate as some of their potential Augments, while PLD gets Enmity, Accuracy and Magic Dmg Taken -%.

Not to mention the dual wield nerfing of all of the 1h ones. It's more an indication that SE gets an idea in their head and never lets go of it. Really, what's the point of lowering offhand damage like that? Especially when the weapons need +damage just to match existing options.

JAs are similarly out of touch. Not entirely useless per se, but not nearly as useful as they could/should be.

[Tsuko_Asura]

I also agree. The NIN can't evade enough and takes too much damage. I remember tanking Byakko as a taru ninja and Byakko would use Diaga or something that would wipe shadows. I would then go /ja "Pray" <me> irl in hopes that Claw Cyclone was not next up on his move list or that a BLM or DRK was about to stun. Evasion tanking is not even a factor in all of this because higher level mobs don't miss and aoe's don't miss. I think the issue with ninja lies between Ichi and Ni. That time between those 2 windows is where the ninja basically prays that they won't die. Lower HP, less defense based abilities (none to be exact) and the 100% reliant on blink being up makes the job a lesser tank.

Except that, outside of Sentinel, a Ninja and a Paladin should be getting hit for nearly identical damage. Technically speaking, the hit-for-hit damage will favor Ninja, while shield blocks will even out the total damage taken.

[ringthree]

Not to mention the dual wield nerfing of all of the 1h ones. It's more an indication that SE gets an idea in their head and never lets go of it. Really, what's the point of lowering offhand damage like that? Especially when the weapons need +damage just to match existing options.

JAs are similarly out of touch. Not entirely useless per se, but not nearly as useful as they could/should be.

I have been considering something like this build and Dorado Sushi to try to increase my damage compared to a PLD, but I really can't say it is worth it at this point.

[Devdas]

Byakko isn't all that scary to tank if you have a PDT- armor set and use tacos... his hits aren't that hard and if your mages or you are smart there will be a stun going off asap. On ninja I have rather convincingly survived a claw cyclone when shadows were down thanks to the defensive armor. Terra's Staff + Arhat's jinpachi + Arhat's gi + Jelly Ring = <3