NIN/RDM vs NIN/DRK

[Saxon]

My shield didn't block at all during ichi and I was sad

Never does when you want it to

[Killkenny]

/drk is fine for anything you can stun, /rdm for anything you can't. There isn't really any point analysing it anymore than that. Both can cap hate just as fast as a pld/nin if not faster due to plds not being able to spike CE.

There is no reason to use nin tank anymore (it was my 2nd 75 job and the first one I really enjoyed). For anything you can melee there is atonement and for anything you can't rdm and pld have a huge range of more useful gear/spell/JA choices availible.

Nin can do the job fine on any monster but pld and rdm can do it better. Holding hate against good plds isn't really any form of accomplishment as any tank that isn't absolutely terrible will cap hate within 5 minutes anyway, and you will be able to trade hate from a 750 damage atonement and casting utsusemi.

As for damage reduction, I would say I take slightly less damage on average (shield blocks included) than a well geared pld when using -40% PDT and tacos. Shield blocks though, are far more useful that that extra bit of damage mitigation and when you throw sentinel and cures/flash into the mix then nin can't really compete.

Nin is lacking in every department except hate generation (which becomes irrelevant once you start to cap) when compared to pld and rdm.

To DramaFinder, yes nin/drk or nin/rdm can easily solo tank ixion reliably, aslong as the tank is familiar with his patterns you shouldn't have any issues. I used both /drk and /rdm for it and would say /rdm is better due to the extra MDB and fastcast on ichi.

[ringthree]

meh, im no better than anyone. im sure if i can do it, they all can too lol. dont need any shadow items or minerva rings really ;

If that were the case then why do people generally prefer PLD over NIN?

Several people have already pointed out that PLD just doesn't have the requirements that NIN has to tank the same things. I don't think that is in dispute. I don't think it is in dispute that NIN can tank the same things that PLD can. It is just easier for a PLD to do it than a NIN.

If NIN was better than PLD then people would use NIN more than PLD.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Well, I'm telling you that your observations are inaccurate. Paladin's higher defense cannot make up for superior PDT equipment, which I know for a fact from tanking as a Red Mage with hardly any defense at all.

And whether or not Ninja and Paladin are equal tanks is irrelevant. People who are steadfast in their PLD-onry mindset think that way due to one(or both) of two reasons: Atonement, or because they believe Paladin is more durable.

[ringthree]

Well, I'm telling you that your observations are inaccurate. Paladin's higher defense cannot make up for superior PDT equipment, which I know for a fact from tanking as a Red Mage with hardly any defense at all.

And whether or not Ninja and Paladin are equal tanks is irrelevant. People who are steadfast in their PLD-onry mindset think that way due to one(or both) of two reasons: Atonement, or because they believe Paladin is more durable.

So no one has figured this out except for you? Who is biased again?

[Max™]

I've had nightmares of having generic support and generic unmerited fresh 75 Pld/Nin and Byakko turning to me, Diaga > Ni up > Triple > Claw Cyclone mid Ichi...

/sigh

Fucking cat can go eat a sack of dicks.

[Devdas]

Heh ya reminds me when I joined my first sky linkshell and was asking to tank something to practice on ninja (I was hoping for Genbu at the time since I was still new at tanking) and they made me tank Byakko... god I have nightmares to this day

[Kipling]

i take it back, than ;;

sometimes bad luck sucks its all good. it just proves tsuko's point more. the damage taken always evens out between rdm/nin/pld's. no one ever shield blocks 100% of the time ;

but your a sexy taru so.. it all evens out

so you dont take on rdm anymore huh? i remember you were pretty good

Haha, the last thing I tanked on RDM was DI and it scared the shit out of me cause I'd never tanked it before and I didn't have my pdt gear for like rampant stance and stuff to idle in. But nah I play PLD a good amount now and like it alot. My gear is getting pretty substantial I guess but the hate from nin/drk and rdm/nin is pretty crazy sometimes compared to what I can manage on PLD in terms of how much mp they have to spend vs me. Spamming blind/bind and other spells for crazy hate compared to me who has to spam cure4 cheats on myself to match for alot more mp is kinda funny sometimes lol. But of course if it's an atonement spammable mob then it just gets a world easier!

I actually am not on RDM as much as I used to be.. Jack always used to stick me on rdm for his 6 man limbus/ein parties but now I'm usually on BRD PLD or BLM it seems. I like tanking alot and how intricate it is. Tanking big monsters like Tiamat as a Taru is also pretty awesome. :D

[richardd]

Haha, the last thing I tanked on RDM was DI and it scared the shit out of me cause I'd never tanked it before and I didn't have my pdt gear for like rampant stance and stuff to idle in. But nah I play PLD a good amount now and like it alot. My gear is getting pretty substantial I guess but the hate from nin/drk and rdm/nin is pretty crazy sometimes compared to what I can manage on PLD in terms of how much mp they have to spend vs me. Spamming blind/bind and other spells for crazy hate compared to me who has to spam cure4 cheats on myself to match for alot more mp is kinda funny sometimes lol. But of course if it's an atonement spammable mob then it just gets a world easier!

I actually am not on RDM as much as I used to be.. Jack always used to stick me on rdm for his 6 man limbus/ein parties but now I'm usually on BRD PLD or BLM it seems. I like tanking alot and how intricate it is. Tanking big monsters like Tiamat as a Taru is also pretty awesome. :D

yeah i kinda gave up on these debates lol

ppl close minded enough to say shit like "nin isnt needed" isnt worth having a debate over lol. actions speak louder than words and any tank is need at any time if they dont suck and actually give it their all. and hell yeah tiamat must be fun for a taru, i cant imagine how much fun i wouldve had if i was a taru tanking it

but just to clarify. i dont disagree with anyone here, i just dont fully 100% agree is all. ringthree has points, and so does everyone else. but in the end, just paly how you see fit.

[Tsuko_Asura]

So no one has figured this out except for you? Who is biased again?

Plenty of people are aware of this, its not a secret. Though, like I said, superfluous advantages in niche areas of survivability don't compare to Atonement.

[ringthree]

but just to clarify. i dont disagree with anyone here, i just dont fully 100% agree is all. ringthree has points, and so does everyone else. but in the end, just paly how you see fit.

Don't get me wrong, I still tank on NIN/DRK. It works just fine. I would like some more gearing options to give me more flexibility.

I also really like Yonin, it doesn't fix why I perceive are the problems with NIN, but it is a nice hate boost before you hit the hate cap.

[Meko]

I don't think that people are doubtful of NIN being a decent job or anything. I think overall, the general consensus is that PLD is preferred at this point. We have basically given reasons as to why we feel that it is and why it is. I'm personally still working on a solid set that I can use for tanking stuff. I enjoy tanking and I wish PLD's wouldn't get the /nod, but they do.

[ringthree]

Plenty of people are aware of this, its not a secret. Though, like I said, superfluous advantages in niche areas of survivability don't compare to Atonement.

I don't agree about your PLD vs. NIN assessment, sorry. To each their own, but saying someone else is biased in the face of generally accepted practice probably isn't the best idea.

As for Attonment, that is why I have been trying to get to some kind of point where I can keep Katanas in my hands instead of a staff. It probably won't work out, but I want to at least try.

[Meko]

Side note: Needs to be a katana that ocassionally attacks 2 to 3 times.

[Max™]

Make Blade: Ku do magical damage based on the number of shadows you've had absorbed/have up/some shit like that which isn't based on your player stats.

Then we get to use the badass animation and pwn shit like an atonement pld does.

[stewie]

I don't agree about your PLD vs. NIN assessment, sorry. To each their own, but saying someone else is biased in the face of generally accepted practice probably isn't the best idea.

As for Attonment, that is why I have been trying to get to some kind of point where I can keep Katanas in my hands instead of a staff. It probably won't work out, but I want to at least try.

STR build for Kamu?

[ninjafox]

Kamu*

edit: was responding to Max not Stewie

[The_Chronik]

There is always that rare situation that a NIN finds itself in with Ni recast being down and shadows just wiped to an Aoe or TA. It's too bad SE hasnt implemented a 5 min JA that allows for 100% spell interruption. It wouldnt even have to negate damage like sentinel does - If you are a serious NIN tank there are not many mobs that are going to take you down in the duration it takes to get off an ichi. To me, its this pivotal time where a Nin dies, or falls way behind in the CE ladder.


I think as far as the debate on Pld and Nin tanking goes, there is a direct correlation to the skill/experience of a group and how successful a Nin tank is. I would even credit the skill of the support job players to being more of a factor to how successful a Nin is than the Nin itself. I think a group of smart and well geared players would generally favor a Nin tank, because it really isn't hard to survive on Nin with the array of gear and support spells in the game, and because of Nin's ability to keep a higher amount of CE and stuns VE spikes every 20~ secs; large HP mob fights are going to go faster because Blm's and DD will almost never pull hate. Like anything in this game though, once a player reaches the top tier of gear/skill for either pld, nin, or rdm - the only question is, "What job do I want to tank with today?"

[Plow]

/insert Cowk holding Byakko at like 68 pld when all the "real" tanks (73 nin, and 2 pld somewhere between 70-75 iirc) went down comment here


As far as the actual topic of the thread, it's a tough choice, but personally, I give the edge to /rdm.

Particularly if you're willing to go that route with augment choices, the extent of fast cast available now is rather crazy, and with /rdm (and the cape), you can push ichi cast times down by like a full second. That's nothing to sneeze at, when you consider that it puts you right into the range where even the fastest attacking mobs that aren't immune to slow/elegy you can likely time it so you get hit twice and get your cast off pretty damn easily.


Also, I need to get out and try something major with Yonin. At this point a few times it's seemed like it allowed you to get past the 80% evas cap, and even on some pretty high shit I've still been at least at or very near it. (om'yovra with no bard)


As far as PLD vs NIN, the 2 big advantages to pld, in my eyes, are the fact that PLD hp+ gear is actually worth a shit other than the hp (gogo g kabuto nin >.>)...

And flash. Stun simply wears off too fast to be as useful, it takes an uber connection and a decent stun duration to stun for your own ichis. Combine flash with the quality of shield mastery, and while a nin having trouble getting shadows up is still somewhat "well, shit happens;" a pld having trouble getting shadows is "lol wtf are you doing gtfo."


And then, of course, invincible vs mijin... need I say more?

[Neosutra]

When a Nin can pump out 750 damage every minute or 2 while holding hate and main healing his alliance, call me.

When I Nin can hit -50% magic damage cap and stack on another 60+ MDB, call me.

When a Nin's parry rate goes to 40-50% allowing them a way to get shadows back up when Ni is down and AoE just wiped them, call me.

When cure swaps stop existing, Chivalry stops working, Sentinel stops being a mini invincible, Fealty stops making me immune to all enfeebles, and red legs start being able to be equiped by Nin, call me.

Until then, my nin sits in retirement as a job that keeps less hate than my pld, takes more damage, and does lesss damage. Nin has its place as a nice solo job with Nin/dnc, leave it be until SE offers some better fixes than a decaying 25 emnity boost.