NIN/RDM vs NIN/DRK

[Kaeko]

They all work (PLD/NIN, RDM/NIN, NIN/DRK, NIN/RDM), but PLD is just more intuitive and "easier".

As far as the survivability issue, PLD is the clear winner for this; however, it should be noted that if you max your NIN out, the only mob you should really ever feel inferior on is AV (and possibly PW, where you want Sentinel). Most things in this game are far too easy to see the difference between a well played PLD/NIN vs. NIN/XXX. NIN/DRK has always been my favorite tanking class (just because back in CoP days where everything was stunnable, it makes for such clean fights to have 2 NIN/DRKs spamming stun), but all the PLD updates since '06 has made it such a powerhouse.

Consider these changes to PLD (all happening w/o a single update to NIN outside the recent Yonin update).

* Sentinel and Rampart no longer useless (Sentinel is a beast)
* Shields all now work like Aegis (aka shield skill actually does something) - prior to this, only Aegis actually worked like all shields do now
* Auto-refresh trait + Auto-Refresh gear (Figured out where Parade Gorget came from, etc.)
* Reprasial
* Fealty
* Shield Blocks now result in 100% cannot be interrupted
* Loads of Haste gear (see Homam set)
* Atonement (fixed CE gain issues as well as making PLD strong DD)

PLD has come a long way. Think back ~3ish years ago and try to compare a NIN/DRK (which really hasn't changed) to a PLD without all these things. Add the fact that back then nothing resisted stun - nowadays anything major will resist or build resist. NIN/DRK was such a powerhouse back then

[Plow]

@ neo

You're fine other than the "keeps more hate," because as long as there's a cap and nin can sit on it easily, that's simply wrong. To use your words, call me back when you've got an 8mp 500 ve spell to cast every 5 seconds.

[Hyriu]

I'm pretty much the only NIN/DRK who gets to tank HNMs in my current LS(We do have a NIN only member but he doesn't play a lot atm) and was in the LS I lead before too, which is pretty sad to say.

Biggest downfall is, as said before not being able to effectively DD-tank most mobs, I usually try to DD-tank things when I actually can(NQ SW lol, JoJ, JoH, and probably some other mobs I can't think of right now but it's really limited) and even then I never parsed myself to see if it compares to PLD/NIN. And now, with Yonin it's become even more difficult to do so because of the accuracy issue, even with Sushi.

Shoot me but I'm actually leveling PLD lol, so when I finish it I probably won't tank on NIN as much as I do now, since I personally think it's a lot more effective(though I'll have to skill up shield for a week straight lol).

[Killkenny]

As Kaeko said they all do the job but pld just does it better (and rdm to some extent). Its not close minded to be of the pld only mentality, its just quite simply because pld is able to do it better. Comparing individuals is never of any use because a good nin is going to be a better tank than a mediocore pld both in terms of skill and gear.

Melee nin on HNMs doesn't work at all unfortunately. With almost perfect WS gear my Jins are still embarassing next to atonement (my highest on faf was high 600s with minuet, sushi, Soul Eater and Last resort but its rare to get anything much higher than 250 on something of that level). If nin did get a new WS that could compete with atonement then there might be a reason to use nin for tanking other than not having any plds availible.

[Neosutra]

@ neo

You're fine other than the "keeps more hate," because as long as there's a cap and nin can sit on it easily, that's simply wrong. To use your words, call me back when you've got an 8mp 500 ve spell to cast every 5 seconds.

Which spell is 500 VE and 8mp?

And it is really irrelevant when I can get 3 times that VE/CE from a single cure swap. The lower VE/CE spells only really help for keeping you closer to the cap a little more often, which is better if your DDs are doing the same thing.

[Deimos]

Hmmm, what kind of build would you suggest for this?

About the only reason NIN can even get close is because of Nikkariaoe. Excluding Yasha HQs (which are pretty rare):

Weapon: Nikkariaoe = 25%
Head: Yasha Jinpachi = 5%
Neck: Willpower Torque = 5%
Body: Yasha Samue = 10%
Hands: Yasha Tekko = 3%
Waist: Druid's Rope = 10%
Legs: Yasha Hakama = 2%
Feet: Yasha Sune-Ate = 5%

That gives a total of 65%, you could hit 73% with Magnetic Earring, and 78% with a full set of Yasha HQs. A NIN/RDM can Aquaveil to hit 98% (assuming it's 20%), so you can get pretty damn close with perfect gear and Aquaveil, but still not quite there.

[Dooom]

If nin did get a new WS that could compete with atonement then there might be a reason to use nin for tanking other than not having any plds availible.

And this is why Kamu is/was such a let-down.

[Tulun]

Which spell is 500 VE and 8mp?

And it is really irrelevant when I can get 3 times that VE/CE from a single cure swap. The lower VE/CE spells only really help for keeping you closer to the cap a little more often, which is better if your DDs are doing the same thing.

Poison? Though that's 5 mp.

[Plow]

blaze spikes is 480 ve/8mp, 5 sec recast with capped haste

poison is 320/5mp

[Hyriu]

Never tried Blaze Spikes.

[Plow]

Dispel/sleep to cap, and to keep CE from shadows, Blaze Spikes to maintain VE, bind and blind for spike VE.


Blind is 640 ve/9 mp, bind 640/8mp

[Stellar]

Nin/drk souleater can provide a lot of damage on a mob that's susceptible (Omega, Ultima, Tiamat, Cerberus, etc). Have support focus cures on you for a minute and go to town. Having Metsu helps since I hardly give the mob any TP, but Nin's inherent subtle blow traits are already high... The accuracy boost from souleater provides enough to make accuracy okay with tacos, pescatora, or w/e...

This isn't feasible in all situations of course. I usually choose Pld or Nin (as previously stated) based on whether or not the mob is completely susceptible to stun. An extra stun every 23 seconds is pwn..

Rdm/nin is my favorite for maximum damage mitigation but missing a VE spike ability can be annoying on mobs with hate drops.. Rdm/war or Rdm/drk works well on some mobs..

Any job with access to -pdt gears, a few spells or low cd JA's and/or some shadows can tank.. The players understanding of damage mitigation including food and gear choice, enmity, and how to use it all together is the key factor in determining if its actually going to work well.

[richardd]

anyone saying pld/nin/rdm doing better than any pld/nin/rdm tank job is the stupidest thing i ever heard. real talk. i proved it over and over and over with different LS's/different ppl/different parses. Im getting tired of it lol. i seriously just dont care anymore.

When i joined SA. they hated nin tanks with a passion. well, one time an HNM popped. i took the initiative. the other tank d/c'd and left me with all the responsibility. i did great, and repeated the 1st steps over and over and a few weeks later i became a main tank and got all my shadow gear etc etc. i tanked with everything you can imagine. another nin/rdm /drk to rdm/nin to even rdm/pld's. pld/nin pld/war and even pld/rdm. never have i got a complaint of me costing anyone too much mp/not holding hate/or doing any dmg. who cares about what tank does the most dmg when sams/wars/drks can pump out 1k WS's every minute? or blm's bursting through every sc? unless you have an excal, i hardly doubt ppl wont recruit pld's that cant outparse a blm on DI. things died so fast that pld's didnt have that much time to even enjoy seeing themselves doing dmg most of the time. even on easy-peasy shit like Odin. ANY tank can fucking solo tank him. even my samurai can. Its like tanking something girly like aspid. those kind of remarks are just dumb. pld=nin=rdm= any other job people wont recognize yet. Some just have more weaknesses than others on certain mobs. thats all.

its just facts. if i can agree with anyone the most on here, it would be xavier on pg 1. and this is coming from a nin's perspective. ive played aegis pld's on DI and SW. ive had mages tell me i played it better than the owner lol. pld's are so simple to play that i can take a shit and come back with hate and a lot of hp. the thing that makes pld more challenging than the other 2 tanks is keeping the hate at cap. but i hardly call that skill. thats an HP macro and cure IV over and over with JA's available you have in case you get lazy. you hardly need good reaction, when you can rely on a shield that will proc 50% of the time (or less if you have koenig, idk about those things)

people like Cli (a hades legend) had aegis and STILL tanked with nin and rdm on certain things because he saw how strong it was against certain mobs. even he knew no tank is better than the next.

I cant think of any 2 tanks better to tank tiamat than a nin/drk. there are aegis plds who know to come bard whenever tiamat popped because even if they know efficient a nin/drk is. we've stunned wings a million times just by establishing hate and saving them the time to recast SS. I can remember multiple times where Tia kept getting stunned for 20 seconds+ before it can even react. it turns into a giant baby. and shield blocks aren't reliable on MS under 25%. ive seen aegis plds in other shells die in 2 sec from it. meanwhile it never hits us for more than 200's-400s 100% of the time unblocked. and with 1700 HP, thats never something to worry about.

Same can be said about DI. a pld doesnt even need a cotank for that mob. its stupidly easy for them to get it done compared to nin or rdm. can we do it? sure we can. ive got SS's to prove absolutely everything i say. but id trust a good pld on that mob more than any other tank.

but i would never say nin > this or that or other way around. there is a time and place for all tanks. nin had its spotlight for a while, but now the bandwagon tank job is pld. retarded ppl can play that job and get it done, but when you have a talented career nin/or an expert career pld staying on the pld route, thats when even ill agree: pld have it way easier on almost everything than a nin does. better for more ohshit scenarios. you can afford to make a mistake or 2. and its more user friendly.

but in the end, every tank is good in its own favor. thats all im gonna say. idc if plds can do 750 dmg every minute. i can do that much dmg every couple sec on sam, and i have a def build/magic resist build on it. doesnt mean its a better tank lol. Even on nin, ive surpassed hate from multiple ppl spamming atonement. the only update nin really need is something along the lines of more dmg reduction. ill be the 1st to admit, i take a lot of dmg from instant aoe's just because i dont have enough time o macro switch it. nin holding hate against atonement was never anything to be proud of or generally hard to do.

This is coming from a guy who pronounced "bostaunieux oubliette" as boston omelette.
any idiot can do this. i hope these ppl dont discourage you nins now. because i know you all are capable of reaching that potential.

[Plow]

I hate to say it rich but you're kinda wrong, Atonement is retardonculous, if you can tp on the mob, pld is *VASTLY* superior now.


Nobody's saying anything "can't" do this or that (remember when bard was the best tank in the game?), but there's no question a PLD offers more benefits alongside the actual damage absorption by leaps and bounds at this point.

[evilpaul]

I've had nightmares of having generic support and generic unmerited fresh 75 Pld/Nin and Byakko turning to me, Diaga > Ni up > Triple > Claw Cyclone mid Ichi...

/sigh

Fucking cat can go eat a sack of dicks.

I've only tanked Byakko a handful of times and don't have HP merits or the best PDT gear, but Byakko seems pretty... moody to me. Sometimes he gets TA procs like no tomorrow other times he's pretty tame.

But with NIN/DRK x2, BRD, RDM, and several Black Mages he mostly just stands there stunned half the time and switches tanks if he drills one pretty well.

As far as NIN DD tanking, I recall doing pretty shitty damage to Byakko as Monk in DD gear with buffs and whatnot, so I don't see how a NIN would fare better. Particularly while still holding hate and not getting dropped in two seconds when something goes horribly wrong.

As for /DRK vs. /RDM I like the Fast Cast from /RDM but it's more of a toy SJ to me. To each his own, of course. I rarely go NIN to anything anyway.

[richardd]

I hate to say it rich but you're kinda wrong, Atonement is retardonculous, if you can tp on the mob, pld is *VASTLY* superior now.


Nobody's saying anything "can't" do this or that (remember when bard was the best tank in the game?), but there's no question a PLD offers more benefits alongside the actual damage absorption by leaps and bounds at this point.

i hate to say it plow. but i proved, ive gotten more hate than a pld that spammed atonement. thats nothing to be proud of.

[Plow]

Who cares who has "more" hate when the best players of both jobs are going to be capped regardless?

"I did better than this guy" is proof of nothing (except maybe 'this guy needs to gtfo'), when you know the reality is that the same person playing both jobs is superior on one to the other.


A ninja does not add significant healing power. A ninja does not add nearly as much dmg as a properly geared atonement pld.


When both jobs are perfectly capable of doing the damage absorbing, the one that can do more other shit at the same time wins.



I'm not trying to dismiss what you've done or anything, I'm just pointing out that at this point if an ls is picking a ninja over a paladin for anything very "serious," they're pretty much guaranteed picking the player, not the job.

[richardd]

Who cares who has "more" hate when the best players of both jobs are going to be capped regardless?

"I did better than this guy" is proof of nothing (except maybe 'this guy needs to gtfo'), when you know the reality is that the same person playing both jobs is superior on one to the other.

thats exactly my point. just because i did it with 1 pld doesnt mean i can do it with the other. but everyone says "this is godly, nins cant keep up with that" type rebuttals are just retarded to me. in the end its like the same scale.

A ninja does not add significant healing power. A ninja does not add nearly as much dmg as a properly geared atonement pld.

if its on a slow hitting mob like odin/tiamat/whatever than who cares if a nin cant heal? we can hold hate. i give a reason for a sam to sub /war instead of /thf on tiamat. they can WS and spam earlier. and you said so yourself. both jobs get to hate cap eventually right? why not let the DD's and blm's have their fun now? sooner the mob dies, sooner i can go to salvage and QQ about ares pants.

and again. who cares about how much dmg a pld can do? i rather rely on the dmg of a 6 hit samurai or a DRK with an apoc than i would of an joytoy pld. thats more TP your giving for something a WAR can do every minute w/o giving it as much TP. again, it depends on the mob. i would loved a joytoy spamming pld on something with weak TP moves, but theres also a reason i wouldve chose to upgrade an excal over aegis. plds can do crazy dmg over time just by swinging the sword even if its hateless. stan held cerb for 35 min, after everyone came to help, it was at 60%. that to me is more efficient than atonement. and he did it with less TP moves thrown at him.

When both jobs are perfectly capable of doing the damage absorbing, the one that can do more other shit at the same time wins.

yeah i agree. which is why i said in the beginning. pld=rdm=nin. none are any better/worse than eachother. more jobs will have more freedom to do their own shit based on what mob they're fighting. tanking isnt as black/white as ppl make it seem.

[Devdas]

This thread went from a /rdm vs /drk thread to pld vs nin rather quickly.

[richardd]

ya your right


thats my last statement than and ill stop shitting up the thread. ill be the bigger man lol.