NIN/RDM vs NIN/DRK

[Milkster]

If a NIN had a Kikoku would it be possible to DD tank? Or is Blade: Metsu that weak?

[Kipling]

Metsu is pretty substantial if you have good gear from what I see from our Kikoku nin.

*Lights the Sath Signal*

[Devdas]

Ohhh I wanna see some Metsu numbers!

[Plow]

It's 300tp blade: ten with 60% dex instead of 30% str 30% dex.

... and a 42 dmg katana

[Xavier]

This thread went from a /rdm vs /drk thread to pld vs nin rather quickly.

To be fair, the OP's third question did ask whether a NIN could keep up with a PLD.

[Devdas]

Oh true... continue the arguing then

[Xavier]

Its such a loaded question to ask, lol.

[Devdas]

Well it's cause Atonement changed Paladin so drastically and us Ninja are stuck using staves most of the time unless you feel confident enough to use Katana... and honestly asides from KS99 Wyrm I don't feel safe without my terra's/neptune's staves

[Snprphnx]

couldnt chime in at work, so i will now. i personally havent tried nin/rdm, havent really needed to, just due to the mobs i fight every now and again. i will say this though, as nin/drk, generating and sustaining hate has never been and issue, so long as you have the support. if you have a lazy mage who doesnt haste you, or cast refresh when it wears off, you will have issues.

last week, i was doing a 8-man omega, no brd, just a rdm, with me tanking with a pld/nin. before, we were able to easily bounce hate, with either a stun or a flash/cure4 taking from the other. this run, however, he didnt stand a chance. he was spamming atonement, using sentinel, cure4 swaps, etc, and he couldn't keep up at allwith me having Yonin. the only way he was able to pass me was getting Sentinel back after my lazy rdm didnt refresh me for 2-3 mins and me sitting on 7mp and only having hojo/kura/jubaku for that time. he (pld) wasnt being lazy at all, he just couldnt touch Yonin, and i am hearing the same thing from a lot of other nins.

as far as survivability, both can survive well, even from AoE and magic AoE. hell, rich had pics on his LJ of him tanking JoLove vs. an Aegis, and only taking about 40-50 more damage from the -aga3s. Nins can do it, it just takes more skill, finesse, and focus. Not just from the tanks side, but also from the support.

I honestly think if Kamu was enmity based like Atonement was, it wouldn't really make a big difference. Most nins who actually tank will be swapping in earth staff to often to midigate damage, plus swinging 2 katanas will be feed TP faster, and most shells arent used to that. Kamu, dmg wise, sucks. However the acc down effect is quite strong. in a recent beastmem temenos, kamu + kura:ni allowed my sam to be missed 8 times in a row by the mnk giga during hundred fist, b4 we could get it slept.

i agree with rich, saying one is better than the other is a shitty way to approach it. its like saying RDM > WHM or WHM > RDM. both have their place in the alliance. both have their strengths and weaknesses. Both, when geared wrong, or played by lazy ppl will suck. and vise versa, when either is geared well, and played well, both can adequately replace the other if needed.

[Oulanbator]

First I'm not trying to make Plds look bad. However I see a lot of wrong information in evert pld Vs nin debate that I have to explain why I think a lot of this is really wrong.
I have Nin, Pld and Whm leveled, and I played all these jobs in end-game situations, so I'm trying to look at things from the tank point of view and the support point of view.


"Shield mitigates a lot of damage"
That's true, shield mitigates a lot of damage. However, shield mostly reduces damage on regular melee hits. When the monsters start using these big physical attacks, the shield is most of the time useless.
You guys mentioned Byakko earlier, but there are many more mobs with Tp moves able to one-shot a 1500 Hp Pld.

Honestly, from a healer's point of view, the shield block doesn't help me at all. It lowers damage on insignificant attacks, but doesn't do anything on the real dangerous blows. The rare situations where Shield might really shine are Mighty Strikes and Hundred Fist abilities, and that's only if reprisal is ready for use.


"Pld have easier timer recasting shadows"
Shield helps to recast shadows, that's true, but it's really random. I don't think any serious Pld relies on shield to recast utsu. Serious Plds just time it right.
Plds get a free utsu cast every 1:30 thanks to reprisal, but they need to prepare this, or their Ni timer will be up before they finish to cast Ichi.


"Pld have panic buttons"
Yes, Plds have 4 panic buttons: sentinel, reprisal, rampart and invincible.
The best one ( sentinel) is usually used as an hate tool. I rarely see Plds saving Sentinel, most Plds open fights with Sentinel to build CE faster, and keep using it when the timer is ready again. Sometimes they save it in case they get hate reset or lost, but rarely for dmg mitigation.
Many Plds use Rampart right after sentinel in order to spike some hate.

Invincible is rarely used as a panic button. It's usually a planned action to deal with a specific move that can be anticipated ( like 100 fists).
When Invincible is really used as a panic button, in 80% of the cases, it's used as an hate spike tool, not a defensive tool. The 20% cases left are situations where the Pld is still alive because of luck, the "omg, 15Hp left" situations. I can't deny it, invincible is an awesome panic button in these lucky situations.

Reprisal is the only real panic button: single effect, low recast, fast casting.
I still see lots of Plds casting it every time it's up... noobs.

Yes, Plds have panic buttons, 3 of them have multiple uses, long recast, and rarely used as panic buttons.
The 4th one is absolutely awesome but no one never mentions it.


"Pld can help with cures"
This is wrong again. As a whm, I cast cure V faster than any Pld casts cure III. And I'm not talking about the Rdm healing with me and his fast cast. Back line is over healing anyways. When a Pld tries to really cure someone, it's usually a waste of Mp because the support will heal before the Pld.
Why do you think Plds use self cure macros ? Because they can never land cures for hate.

Yes, Pld cures someone from time to time, but the rare targets they can land cures on are the ones that aren't in a hurry to receive a cure.


"Pld needs less support than other tanks"
This is not true. This is soooo wrong. Omg how can someone say such a nonsense in 2009 ? /facepalm
Jesus, I can't believe someone dared to say this when 90% of the tanks in this game, no matter the job, continuously barks the same things at their support every time the mob farts at them: "Para" "I started casting before you typed, I know the attacks and it's written in the chat", "Haste" "Timer not up or I would have cast it", "Erase" "So you prefer erase over a cure V when you're at 500 Hp ? Are you sure ?", "Silence" "OMFG, use echo drops instead of typing shit !"
Yeah, really, Plds don't realy on support as much as other tanks ! Next time I'll spam Holy since Plds don't need my support. /irony off


"Pld is so awesome since we got all these updates"
People thinking this are really self centered. Look at your support, cause the best things Pld got comes from their support, not from Pld: the really powerful Slow II and Para II, Phalanx, Pianissimo, Brds able to land elegy on almost everything, Cureskin, Sch buffs... and all the gear the support now have they didn't have 3 years ago.
Remove half this, and let's see what is left of Pld/nins tanking... really.

A tank is only as good as his support his... this is even more true than it was 3 years ago.


"Pld can deal damage"
Err... yeah. That's the big number syndrome. Really.
Atonement is a fun toy, but you're still far behind the real DDs. Maybe the group saves 2 minutes on a 30 minutes fight thanks to Atonement. That's not worth mentioning unless for e-peen reasons.



Seriously, a lot of people are all gay for "the best", "the better", "the bestest"(lol) etc... We should seriously consider getting rid of this cookie-cutter mentality of people trying to justify they are better than the guy next to them. They are all good and any is fine, really.
The only thing Pld is really the best at is boasting about how superior he is compared to other tanks. I believe the shiny armor is enough to convince everyone they are soooo much better than others.


Ps: All the "Ninjas can do it, it takes more skill" is also bullshit. It's not harder to press a gear swap macro than to press a JA macro, it's not harder for the support.

[Kaeko]

While I love the "we should all work together as equals" bit, PLD is the superior tank when it comes to the most difficult of mobs (coming from someone that favors NIN tanking). It's just that most players don't fight the mobs where PLD really outshines the other jobs.

If you want to talk CoP-era, I'll take the NIN/DRK for stun spam - but would you really qualify anything in that era as difficult now sans AV? Actually I'm pretty sure any tank would work on any mob outside the PW/AVs of the game. You need a mob of extreme difficulty to differentiate the classes' strengths and weaknesses.

[Oulanbator]

Please tell me which mobs Pld is better at.

[Kaeko]

Please tell me which mobs Pld is better at.

Well I sort of said it in the reply...

I said they were all equal until faced with a mob of extreme difficulty, which pretty much narrowed it to 2 mobs - PW and AV.

[Tsuko_Asura]

While I love the "we should all work together as equals" bit, PLD is the superior tank when it comes to the most difficult of mobs (coming from someone that favors NIN tanking). It's just that most players don't fight the mobs where PLD really outshines the other jobs.

If you want to talk CoP-era, I'll take the NIN/DRK for stun spam - but would you really qualify anything in that era as difficult now sans AV? Actually I'm pretty sure any tank would work on any mob outside the PW/AVs of the game. You need a mob of extreme difficulty to differentiate the classes' strengths and weaknesses.

I'm going to have to disagree. As far as overall utility goes, Paladin is the top dog against anything that is susceptible to Atonement. There's no reason to use another tank when the survival differences are so minuscule, and one of your options can double-up as a damage dealer. If that's not the case, though, I don't see how Paladin can hold a candle to Red Mage. Like Ninja, the per-hit damage is lower, due to both a natural and more powerful Phalanx and the availability of better PDT equipment. When you add in easily attainable 100% interruption immunity, 410 Stoneskin, MDB, Fast Cast, and Sleep II, there's really no contest.

[Tsuko_Asura]

About the only reason NIN can even get close is because of Nikkariaoe. Excluding Yasha HQs (which are pretty rare):

Weapon: Nikkariaoe = 25%
Head: Yasha Jinpachi = 5%
Neck: Willpower Torque = 5%
Body: Yasha Samue = 10%
Hands: Yasha Tekko = 3%
Waist: Druid's Rope = 10%
Legs: Yasha Hakama = 2%
Feet: Yasha Sune-Ate = 5%

That gives a total of 65%, you could hit 73% with Magnetic Earring, and 78% with a full set of Yasha HQs. A NIN/RDM can Aquaveil to hit 98% (assuming it's 20%), so you can get pretty damn close with perfect gear and Aquaveil, but still not quite there.

Merits, 100% is possible.

[Yugl]

Whatever happened to that spell interruption thread?

[Kaeko]

I'm going to have to disagree. As far as overall utility goes, Paladin is the top dog against anything that is susceptible to Atonement. There's no reason to use another tank when the survival differences are so minuscule, and one of your options can double-up as a damage dealer. If that's not the case, though, I don't see how Paladin can hold a candle to Red Mage. Like Ninja, the per-hit damage is lower, due to both a natural and more powerful Phalanx and the availability of better PDT equipment. When you add in easily attainable 100% interruption immunity, 410 Stoneskin, MDB, Fast Cast, and Sleep II, there's really no contest.

Well the comment that they are all relatively equal before being faced with mobs like AV sort of applies in that you don't really NEED a certain type of tank to accomplish something outside of AV/PWs. If you want to say RDM is better than PLD or NIN is better than RDM etc., it completely depends on the mob. I'd still say if the mob is stunnable NIN/DRK would still be favored.

The point is any of the tanking schemes works on the vast majority of mobs in the game. They all (1) cap TE relatively quickly, (2) have good survivability, and (3) do not require an immense amount of support. So you can argue the finer points like you did here, but they ALL WORK. Some work better than others in particular situations, but overall they still function well.

Now when are faced with something like AV, a NIN and RDM fall behind because of an overall lack of defensive measures. I'm trying to argue overall situations where you would NEED 1 type over another (and in those situations, you want the PLD) and I think most of you guys now are trying to argue details (where any tank works, but you may have a preference to 1 particular type due to some detail about the mob).

[Tsuko_Asura]

It was in standard somewhere. We don't really need the thread, though. 100% SIR makes you uninterruptable, unless you're stunned, slept, moved, etc.

[Neosutra]

This thread just went to stupid in a landslide.

Plds cant cure Oulanbater.. Just because whms get cure off faster? Trivialzing panic buttons, shield mastery, and sentinel/invinc/rampart/reprisal/chivalry?

Come on.. Dont be dense.

And plow, blaze spikes is great VE, but I dont like to use it even when /rdm on pld, due to long casting time. I stick with sleep/blind/bind/flash, and self cures.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Well the comment that they are all relatively equal before being faced with mobs like AV sort of applies in that you don't really NEED a certain type of tank to accomplish something outside of AV/PWs. If you want to say RDM is better than PLD or NIN is better than RDM etc., it completely depends on the mob. I'd still say if the mob is stunnable NIN/DRK would still be favored.

The point is any of the tanking schemes works on the vast majority of mobs in the game. They all (1) cap TE relatively quickly, (2) have good survivability, and (3) do not require an immense amount of support. So you can argue the finer points like you did here, but they ALL WORK. Some work better than others in particular situations, but overall they still function well.

Now when are faced with something like AV, a NIN and RDM fall behind because of an overall lack of defensive measures. I'm trying to argue overall situations where you would NEED 1 type over another (and in those situations, you want the PLD) and I think most of you guys now are trying to argue details (where any tank works, but you may have a preference to 1 particular type due to some detail about the mob).

PW is just a combination of a bunch of mobs that are susceptible to Atonement, which would lead me to agree with you. You seem to be suggesting Paladin because of some edge in survivability though, which leaves me slightly confused.

AV isn't killable, so I don't really think its applicable. Even so, their only advantage is Fealty, which will save them from something that will end up causing a wipe regardless of whether or not they're standing.