NIN/RDM vs NIN/DRK

[Aero]

One thing Id like to add is the lost art of evasion tanking. With double mambo/march and a proper eva set you can get a lot of HNMs down to pathetic ACC. Byakko with 60% ACC and a 30 second Ni makes solo tanking him laughable. With stun alone and DD's not going balls to the wall, it makes for a very smooth fight. Of course it is a slower fight due to slower hate gain. But I have never been in any danger of dying.

[Tsuko_Asura]

One thing Id like to add is the lost art of evasion tanking. With double mambo/march and a proper eva set you can get a lot of HNMs down to pathetic ACC. Byakko with 60% ACC and a 30 second Ni makes solo tanking him laughable. With stun alone and DD's not going balls to the wall, it makes for a very smooth fight. Of course it is a slower fight due to slower hate gain. But I have never been in any danger of dying.

Questionably more survivability at the cost of killing speed? Pass.

[stewie]

The only time I use full EVA is for Ichi after an AoE or without shadows, fulltiming it would reduce effeciency, imo.

[Neosutra]

Are people really arguing that Nin is just as survivable as Pld? Really?

[Xavier]

Oulanbator, no offense, but that whole post was rubbish.

You assume the PLD is an idiot, who spams all his abilities on a whim, who has no concept of time (balancing ichi, ni, reprisal), who doesn't gear swap for the appropriate situation (shield for ichi, melee for atonement, enmity for cures, haste for ni, etc) and who is evidently too slow to cure anyone because there are an army of healers who magically cure -everyone- instantly.

You misunderstood the argument for a PLD needing less support as well. All things being equal, a PLD quite obviously requires less healing then a NIN (from other people), as the NIN cannot cure himself. A PLD can serve as a main healer (note: generally not the sole healer, ability decreases based on the difficulty of the boss) and the main tank, a NIN cannot. That is the single largest disadvantage NIN has (reliance on others to heal it), to me.

Like I said before, hate is a non-issue between the two. And if the mob is actually capable of being stunned (newer content stopped this), two NIN/DRK outright shine, keeping the mob fairly stun-locked.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Are people really arguing that Nin is just as survivable as Pld? Really?

On a hit-for-hit basis only, certainly not in general.

[Kaeko]

PW is just a combination of a bunch of mobs that are susceptible to Atonement, which would lead me to agree with you. You seem to be suggesting Paladin because of some edge in survivability though, which leaves me slightly confused.

AV isn't killable, so I don't really think its applicable. Even so, their only advantage is Fealty, which will save them from something that will end up causing a wipe regardless of whether or not they're standing.

I think PW you'd want the PLD for the use of Sentinel between form changes.

As far as AV, I guess it's opinion (the fact that it's pointless and unkillable - I'd rather not derail into that). But it's hard for any other job to so easily max your magic damage reduction while maintaining your physical damage reduction. Remember AV instant casts so you can't just switch into MDB gear on a whim. The fact you can near cap magic and physical at the same time is a huge help on something like AV - that's one form of survivability.

Sentinel and the other "oh shit" JAs PLD has also adds a great deal of it. On PW when you have to deal with those annoying form changes + lamp repops are a good example where you are likely to need Sentinel. The JA overall is just so strong it's hard to trivialize it. Fealty's already been discussed.

Overall, I don't feel like continually discussing this b/c it happens like every other month on BG, but it's safe to say that for the vast majority of players in endgame, any tank works. It'll most likely come down to skill/preference of the individuals and groups you're in rather than the little differences between them.

[Tsuko_Asura]

As far as AV, I guess it's opinion (the fact that it's pointless and unkillable - I'd rather not derail into that). But it's hard for any other job to so easily max your magic damage reduction while maintaining your physical damage reduction. Remember AV instant casts so you can't just switch into MDB gear on a whim. The fact you can near cap magic and physical at the same time is a huge help on something like AV - that's one form of survivability.

I more or less agree with everything else, but this is really only applicable when you have an Aegis. If that's not the case, Red Mage has MDB to give them a slight edge against Paladin, who is otherwise in the exact same boat.

[Kaeko]

I more or less agree with everything else, but this is really only applicable when you have an Aegis. If that's not the case, Red Mage has MDB to give them a slight edge against Paladin, who is otherwise in the exact same boat.

That's true. Then again, when you talk about AV, you're usually dealing with maxed everything lol.

[Kipling]

This thread is now about Tsuko's awesome new sig. Did rich make it for you?

[Tsuko_Asura]

Haha, yeah. Fucking <3 him.

[Kaeko]

Topic got kind of derailed but I found this bit interesting so I thought I'd repost it...

About the only reason NIN can even get close is because of Nikkariaoe. Excluding Yasha HQs (which are pretty rare):

Weapon: Nikkariaoe = 25%
Head: Yasha Jinpachi = 5%
Neck: Willpower Torque = 5%
Body: Yasha Samue = 10%
Hands: Yasha Tekko = 3%
Waist: Druid's Rope = 10%
Legs: Yasha Hakama = 2%
Feet: Yasha Sune-Ate = 5%

That gives a total of 65%, you could hit 73% with Magnetic Earring, and 78% with a full set of Yasha HQs. A NIN/RDM can Aquaveil to hit 98% (assuming it's 20%), so you can get pretty damn close with perfect gear and Aquaveil, but still not quite there.

With Merits you could hit the 100% mark and get no interrupts. This seems like an interesting thing to apply that separates /RDM and /DRK a bit more. Though I'm not sure how viable this is?

[Kipling]

I can't fucking look away.

[Aero]

Depending on what you're fighting I certainly would. Who cares if you kill Byakko in 15 mins as opposed to 10(Low man of course). Not every HNM I would fulltime EVA. Byakko and Ultima are the best examples I can find when it comes to EVA tanking. If you have the support and a co-tank go the enmity/haste build of course; but solo tanking and low healing support I personally opt to go with the EVA gear and take my time.

It really adds a ton of survivabilty. Then again there are times where a mob decideds to pull 100% acc out of its ass, but thats also the only real time your healers spend their mp; and there is plenty of time to rest it back when you start evading again.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Topic got kind of derailed but I found this bit interesting so I thought I'd repost it...



With Merits you could hit the 100% mark and get no interrupts. This seems like an interesting thing to apply that separates /RDM and /DRK a bit more. Though I'm not sure how viable this is?

Viable, or factual? I can attest to the fact that 100% SIR means you cannot be interrupted unless stunned, slept, or moved.

[Kaeko]

Viable, or factual? I can attest to the fact that 100% SIR means you cannot be interrupted unless stunned, slept, or moved.

I know it works, it's more a question of is this worth gearing for. Also, you need Aquaveil for this to work.

Also, would a NIN/RDM ever both with Skin?

[Tsuko_Asura]

Also, would a NIN/RDM ever both with Skin?

no drg for camp with 10 dmg or is it like 30 dmg?

[Devdas]

Depending on what you're fighting I certainly would. Who cares if you kill Byakko in 15 mins as opposed to 10(Low man of course). Not every HNM I would fulltime EVA. Byakko and Ultima are the best examples I can find when it comes to EVA tanking. If you have the support and a co-tank go the enmity/haste build of course; but solo tanking and low healing support I personally opt to go with the EVA gear and take my time.

It really adds a ton of survivabilty. Then again there are times where a mob decideds to pull 100% acc out of its ass, but thats also the only real time your healers spend their mp; and there is plenty of time to rest it back when you start evading again.

The art of evasion tanking died because the art of taking almost laughable damage became the key. Evasion tanking relies on the fact that the mob like you said doesn't pull 100% acc out of its ass and if you get hit its gonna hurt. I'd rather rely on the 100% chance that my PDT- gear will make me take very little damage/the chance of a parry/the chance of an evade. Now evasion tanking I agree is nothing to laugh at but sometimes it leaves just too much to chance especially for mobs that can wipe shadows (We seem to like using byakko in this thread so diaga -> claw cyclone your dead and evasion wont save you unless you switch to PDT- gear which you could have been wearing to start with). Since the basis of evasion tanking is assuming the mobs attack will miss when your gonna take a hit... but if a TP attack comes your not gonna be living.

[Oulanbator]

I said they were all equal until faced with a mob of extreme difficulty, which pretty much narrowed it to 2 mobs - PW and AV.

I pretty much agree with what you said. From what I saw of PW ( we tried once), out of the 6 Plds that were swapped in and out, the only one that consistently survived was the Aegis one. Was it the job or the relic shield that made the difference ? Or maybe he had more attention from support since he was obviously our more defensive tank.

If the relic gives the player a real edge over every other tank, an Aegis-less Pld doesn't have that edge over other classes. I know you know this, but when I read the usual argument of Pld Vs Nin, it sounds like every Pld and their moms have Aegis.

You assume the PLD is an idiot, who spams all his abilities on a whim, who has no concept of time (balancing ichi, ni, reprisal), who doesn't gear swap for the appropriate situation (shield for ichi, melee for atonement, enmity for cures, haste for ni, etc) and who is evidently too slow to cure anyone because there are an army of healers who magically cure -everyone- instantly.

Don't tell me you've never lost hate on war/sams or other sick DDs. Don't tell me you've never used Sentinel and JAs to build enmity.
Sometimes you have to go all out, sometimes you don't. Many players here talk about capping CE asap, but there are lots of situations where it would be wiser to take a couple minutes to build quietly hate before DDs enter in action.
In the end, it's more about the group choosing than the Pld choosing. Even the most defensive Pld of the game will have to "waste" its panic buttons for hate every now and then.

For cures, it's not about having good reflexes or being slow, it's about cure cast merits, gear, light arts or fast cast making Whm and Rdm faster at firing cures than Pld. On top of that, a healer almost only focus on healing, while a tank have lots of other things to worry about ( shadows, gear, hate, co-tank, special attacks).
A Pld just can't heal faster than a healer, but they can work together.

You misunderstood the argument for a PLD needing less support as well. All things being equal, a PLD quite obviously requires less healing then a NIN (from other people), as the NIN cannot cure himself. A PLD can serve as a main healer (note: generally not the sole healer, ability decreases based on the difficulty of the boss) and the main tank, a NIN cannot. That is the single largest disadvantage NIN has (reliance on others to heal it), to me.

The healing power is rarely an issue. As I said, the backline tends to overheal, and the reason they do is because they have the resources to do so. The harder the mob is, the more healing resources we tend to have, while at the same time Pld have less occasions to behave as a healer.
I think the Pld healing potential is interesting in low men situations on semi-hard mobs ( Ultima for example). However, if you compare to Nin, it's quite even because the Nin will take less dmg than a Pld on that kind of mob since he can make shadows last longer, so he'll require less healing.


What I'm trying to say is lots of players try to show all the good sides of the Pld without really comparing these abilities and to the reality of the game. Everything is situational, all situations can be overcome without "the best" setup ( and Pld isn't always the best).

I mean, I could argue a Nin can debuff... after all, they can

[Aero]

While I do whore eva, a lot of the gear it comes with has HP on it. I personally idle in 1480~ hp in my EVA set with food. Which is enough to survive without shadows for 5~ consecutive hits, without any healing. Now, using Byakko again since he is one of the most offensive mobs in the game, this can happen in 2 triple attack rounds.

Ive personally parsed Byakko at around 60% ACC with 107 AGI, 297 EVA skill, +90/78EVA, and what ever eva+ mambos give. Now if my math is right at 60% acc to land 5 hits in a row is roughly 1% chance of happening. Add in the time it takes between elegy+slow attack rounds and a cure4 or 2, you will have a very hard time dying. This is almost always more mp efficient than haste/enmity and bloodtanking every now and then, in my opinion.