NIN/RDM vs NIN/DRK

[Tsuko_Asura]

Stopped reading at '..Byakko.. ..one of the most offensive mobs in the game..'

[Yugl]

Stopped reading at '..Byakko.. ..one of the most offensive mobs in the game..'

He gave me the paw once. I returned with a Cannonball.

[Xavier]

Don't tell me you've never lost hate on war/sams or other sick DDs. Don't tell me you've never used Sentinel and JAs to build enmity.

Sometimes you have to go all out, sometimes you don't. Many players here talk about capping CE asap, but there are lots of situations where it would be wiser to take a couple minutes to build quietly hate before DDs enter in action.

In the end, it's more about the group choosing than the Pld choosing. Even the most defensive Pld of the game will have to "waste" its panic buttons for hate every now and then.

I don't think I ever said a PLD wasn't capable of losing hate, in particular to overzealous melee?

But you initially implied that most PLDs spam their abilities with no regard to their necessity. Using them because you lost hate is not equivalent to freely using them just because they are available.

Going all out in the first 10 seconds to set your hate is not the same as going all out every time your abilities are available either.

For cures, it's not about having good reflexes or being slow, it's about cure cast merits, gear, light arts or fast cast making Whm and Rdm faster at firing cures than Pld. On top of that, a healer almost only focus on healing, while a tank have lots of other things to worry about ( shadows, gear, hate, co-tank, special attacks).
A Pld just can't heal faster than a healer, but they can work together.

Are you seriously suggesting that simply because other jobs cast faster, they are capable of simultaneously completely healing the entire alliance instantly from AoE damage?

Of course a PLD can't heal "faster", but there is rarely a circumstance where he can't heal at all. Its also an exaggeration to say that a healer "almost only focus on healing", because they are likely to be responsible for hasting, refreshing, removing status effects, etc as well as curing. They are just as likely to be in the middle of a cast for something else as you are.

The ability of a PLD to work together with the healers to heal, while the healers handle status debuffs, player buffs, etc, is one of the benefits of a PLD over a NIN. I don't see how you can trivialize that so easily.

The healing power is rarely an issue. As I said, the backline tends to overheal, and the reason they do is because they have the resources to do so. The harder the mob is, the more healing resources we tend to have, while at the same time Pld have less occasions to behave as a healer.
I think the Pld healing potential is interesting in low men situations on semi-hard mobs ( Ultima for example). However, if you compare to Nin, it's quite even because the Nin will take less dmg than a Pld on that kind of mob since he can make shadows last longer, so he'll require less healing.

The harder the mob, the more damage the entire alliance is likely to take, making a PLDs ability to heal that much more important, not less. Unless you are literally bring a personal healer for every single person in the alliance, there will always be someone for the PLD to cure. Believing otherwise is just a joke.

Are you also suggesting that because a NIN has an extra shadow, that will somehow protect them from AoE moves that wipe/absorb multiple shadows, and that somehow balances out the damage they take versus the amount of healing a PLD is capable of? How do you figure he will take less damage? You would have to ignore all of a PLDs additional damage mitigation abilities beyond shadows, not to mention that they can be largely responsible for healing themselves.

What I'm trying to say is lots of players try to show all the good sides of the Pld without really comparing these abilities and to the reality of the game. Everything is situational, all situations can be overcome without "the best" setup ( and Pld isn't always the best).

I mean, I could argue a Nin can debuff... after all, they can

Like I said, I think NIN/DRK outclasses PLD on anything that can be freely stunned (and lands), but those kind of HNM have been gradually phased out.

I understand your point, but what you've implied isn't at all realistic. You've tried to trivialize every single thing a PLD can do by basically implying the PLD is incompetent. Whether you realize that or not, I don't know.

As for NIN being able to debuff, yes, they can, but I'd prefer the stronger debuffs from a merited RDM.

[Dein]

Don't tell me you've never lost hate on war/sams or other sick DDs. Don't tell me you've never used Sentinel and JAs to build enmity.
Sometimes you have to go all out, sometimes you don't. Many players here talk about capping CE asap, but there are lots of situations where it would be wiser to take a couple minutes to build quietly hate before DDs enter in action.
In the end, it's more about the group choosing than the Pld choosing. Even the most defensive Pld of the game will have to "waste" its panic buttons for hate every now and then.

For cures, it's not about having good reflexes or being slow, it's about cure cast merits, gear, light arts or fast cast making Whm and Rdm faster at firing cures than Pld. On top of that, a healer almost only focus on healing, while a tank have lots of other things to worry about ( shadows, gear, hate, co-tank, special attacks).
A Pld just can't heal faster than a healer, but they can work together.


The healing power is rarely an issue. As I said, the backline tends to overheal, and the reason they do is because they have the resources to do so. The harder the mob is, the more healing resources we tend to have, while at the same time Pld have less occasions to behave as a healer.
I think the Pld healing potential is interesting in low men situations on semi-hard mobs ( Ultima for example). However, if you compare to Nin, it's quite even because the Nin will take less dmg than a Pld on that kind of mob since he can make shadows last longer, so he'll require less healing.

I don't think Xavier ever made a claim about not losing hate (nor has anyone in this thread made such a claim for either Nin or Pld). It's common knowledge that once two people hit the CE cap they can bounce hate rather easily with VE so if the fight goes on long enough you'll certainly see some DD's taking hate for a little at one point. Also, the whole "waste your panic buttons at the start of the fight" falls in line with what he said about using your JA's properly. I'm also pretty certain that both Pld/nin and Nin/drk(or /rdm) need a little time at the start of any fight to get started on building hate before DD's enter the scene.

As for the healing issue, just because you might have healers that overheal doesn't mean that pld can't heal themselves and others competently if needed. I agree that a good pld could help a lowman group a lot but your example with Ultima isn't very good if you want to say nin can keep up with pld. The main concern with Ultima is Citadel Buster, not keeping shadows up, and as far as I know pld has a lot more mdt and mdb gear than nin to allow them to survive CB quite well.

What I'm trying to say is lots of players try to show all the good sides of the Pld without really comparing these abilities and to the reality of the game. Everything is situational, all situations can be overcome without "the best" setup ( and Pld isn't always the best).

I mean, I could argue a Nin can debuff... after all, they can

People are showing valid good points about pld but what you're doing is often claiming wrong info against pld (such as claiming that a good pld doesn't rely on shield blocks when casting utsu:ichi if their shadows are down) in an attempt to downplay it. Nin/drk, as others have said, can have an easier time against mobs that can be stunned at will but that far from disqualifies pld/nin as a good tank on such enemies and I'm struggling to come up with anything that pld/nin wouldn't be able to handle that a nin/drk could handle. Shit may be situational but pld is a pretty versatile job in the end after all.

Edit: Beaten by a minute by Xavier. lol

[Suiram]

Viable, or factual? I can attest to the fact that 100% SIR means you cannot be interrupted unless stunned, slept, or moved.

I have 100% spell interruption build on BLU that I have messed around with recently in Einherjar and testing on Mandies in Den of Rancor. Utsu still gets interrupted a ton, and even had a BLU spell (I forget which) get interrupted, although interrupts are considerably less common on BLU spells even with like 6 mobs hitting me (without any SIR gear, or with 15%, interrupts in Ein were still fairly common on BLU spells even with capped merits etc).

I doubt it's a 95% cap, since utsu is interrupted way more than 5%, and I doubt it's a "the real values in 256ths or whatever don't total 100%" thing either, for the same reason. Although I guess it's possible that if I did overshoot the 100% mark to see if that results in a "true" 100% SIR build (could use the ZNM cape), that the utsu interrupts might magically disappear. Even if that's the case, though, there's still something funny going on beforehand. (By this I mean, if you had X% spell interruption, you'd expect at most an X% chance of interrupt from one hit say, but it doesn't seem to work that way.)

(Gear used is Eremites x2, Nashira Turban, Willpower torque, druid's rope, BLU AF1 legs, and Karasutengu)

[Tsuko_Asura]

I have 100% spell interruption build on BLU that I have messed around with recently in Einherjar and testing on Mandies in Den of Rancor. Utsu still gets interrupted a ton, and even had a BLU spell (I forget which) get interrupted, although interrupts are considerably less common on BLU spells even with like 6 mobs hitting me (without any SIR gear, or with 15%, interrupts in Ein were still fairly common on BLU spells even with capped merits etc).

I doubt it's a 95% cap, since utsu is interrupted way more than 5%, and I doubt it's a "the real values in 256ths or whatever don't total 100%" thing either, for the same reason. Although I guess it's possible that if I did overshoot the 100% mark to see if that results in a "true" 100% SIR build (could use the ZNM cape), that the utsu interrupts might magically disappear. Even if that's the case, though, there's still something funny going on beforehand. (By this I mean, if you had X% spell interruption, you'd expect at most an X% chance of interrupt from one hit say, but it doesn't seem to work that way.)

(Gear used is Eremites x2, Nashira Turban, Willpower torque, druid's rope, BLU AF1 legs, and Karasutengu)

Then something was adjusted very, very recently. Like, within the past couple weeks.

[Plow]

And plow, blaze spikes is great VE, but I dont like to use it even when /rdm on pld, due to long casting time. I stick with sleep/blind/bind/flash, and self cures.

Blind is technically the better spell, but the difference is also enough that you can use blaze spikes to sit close, then hit bind/blind when you need to pull it off the other tank.

[Suiram]

Then something was adjusted very, very recently. Like, within the past couple weeks.

I'm open to the possibility that it could cap at 100% and just i have like 254/256 or something and it behaves strangely below the cap.

Also possible is gear cap/magic cap, allowing you to get 100% SIR only if you use Aquaveil?

[Xavier]

I'm curious now. Like someone else said, its only really beneficial if you can actually hit 100% SIR. I'd assume that without a guaranteed cast, the risk isn't even close to worth the cost of leaving yourself pretty damn exposed physically, yeah?

[Tsuko_Asura]

I'm open to the possibility that it could cap at 100% and just i have like 254/256 or something and it behaves strangely below the cap.

Also possible is gear cap/magic cap, allowing you to get 100% SIR only if you use Aquaveil?

The latter, while silly, would make some degree of sense.

[Krispy]

Personally I like NIN/DRK tank better because I spam Stun/Sleep/Bind/Kurayami/Hojo then throw in shadows there as I go along, never had a problem holding hate, even against decked out PLDs. I've also tried NIN/RDM before which is pretty useful because you can get phalanx and spam Dispel Sleep Bind for hate. For me, It would really depend on what I'm fighting. If I'm fighting something I can stun, like Cerberus, Sky gods etc. I would prefer DRK sub just for the sheer fact that I can stun them for me to keep Ni going, If I was fighting something like Fafnir I would like RDM sub because Phalanx would save my butt, and also get Magic Defense bonus for getting hit with Hurricane wing, etc. They're both great SJ's to use when tanking on ninja, really comes down to personal pref. For me, I'd rather go with NIN/DRK especially if you have a good group and a good healer.

[Zazel]

This thread is pretty much stupid shit. Take Richardd's advice and do w/e Kaeko says cause he knows wtf he is talking ab. Besides that, fuck all the plds who post on this thread ab your epeen Atonement numbers n shit. If you don't have an Excalibur then your dmg doesn't mean shit. Guess your pretty fucking awesome you got to Atonement twice during that 4min Fafnir eh? Seriously no point n listening to any shit in this thread and let tank do their own thing. Most of these tanks will get their shit handed to them from either another tank or mob and act like it didn't happen.

Too bad 80% of the mobs in the game you'll look like garbage solo tanking (idc wtf gear you have).

[Stellar]

Metsu is slightly weaker than Jin overall. The really spectacular thing about metsu is the degree of the subtle blow the aftermath provides. I've soloed mobs without them using a single TP move, etc.. But in merits and HNM Jin will put out a bigger average.

A Nin/war or Nin/drk w/e pure Dmg dealing Kikoku tank is feasible yes, but at that point you become so susceptible to damage that it's more of a liability than it's worth. (I'm speaking pseudo-dangerous mobs.. Cerb / Tiamat / Khim.. On Suzaku or something pure damage dealing works just fine and will undoubtedly out damage an atonement pld..)

[Fridell]

This thread is full of crap.
Why discuss "best tank" when you should discuss the best TANK SETUP for what you are doing? This varies between groups / Linkshell & player.
NIN/DRK & RDM/NIN can be the best for certain groups for certain battles, PLD/NIN & RDM/NIN can be best for some, but imo the combo I like best is PLD & NIN (SJ variation dependent on the mob being fought).
It's pretty damn pointless to discuss one single tank being the best here.

[pchan]

I have 100% spell interruption build on BLU that I have messed around with recently in Einherjar and testing on Mandies in Den of Rancor. Utsu still gets interrupted a ton, and even had a BLU spell (I forget which) get interrupted, although interrupts are considerably less common on BLU spells even with like 6 mobs hitting me (without any SIR gear, or with 15%, interrupts in Ein were still fairly common on BLU spells even with capped merits etc).

I doubt it's a 95% cap, since utsu is interrupted way more than 5%, and I doubt it's a "the real values in 256ths or whatever don't total 100%" thing either, for the same reason. Although I guess it's possible that if I did overshoot the 100% mark to see if that results in a "true" 100% SIR build (could use the ZNM cape), that the utsu interrupts might magically disappear. Even if that's the case, though, there's still something funny going on beforehand. (By this I mean, if you had X% spell interruption, you'd expect at most an X% chance of interrupt from one hit say, but it doesn't seem to work that way.)

(Gear used is Eremites x2, Nashira Turban, Willpower torque, druid's rope, BLU AF1 legs, and Karasutengu)

Are you sure you had 100% ? Because I've done it on chigoes (3 of them hundrefisting me), no interruption with stoneskin or ichi, I've hold a MMJ lurker level 83 for 30 min, and no interrupt either, and then Jormungand couln't interrupt my stoneskin either. And I don't over shoot in spell interruption gear either, as I have exactly 100% (72% in gear + aquaveil+ 4 merits).

edit : went in Den of Rencor, tanked 2 pucks at a time (they are even match, and hit for ~80), they couldn't interrupt stoneskin or ichi either.

[Tsuko_Asura]

This thread is full of crap.
Why discuss "best tank" when you should discuss the best TANK SETUP for what you are doing? This varies between groups / Linkshell & player.
NIN/DRK & RDM/NIN can be the best for certain groups for certain battles, PLD/NIN & RDM/NIN can be best for some, but imo the combo I like best is PLD & NIN (SJ variation dependent on the mob being fought).
It's pretty damn pointless to discuss one single tank being the best here.

Death Blossom opening Light for Atonement > anything a Ninja can do

Then again, you're better off just having a second Paladin.

[Fridell]

Clever.
Go here Home

[Amastacia]

He's kind of got a point though.

On old (CoP and before) content, NIN is sometimes a great option, but it is rarely, if ever, qualitatively or quantitatively better than PLD. It's just a matter of preference (and maybe pity - letting the old NINs dust off their tanking gear and do it for a change).

Strictly speaking, comparing job to job, PLD is undeniably the best tank option in pretty much any situation. It brings everything to the table NIN does, except Stun (which is a convenience, not a necessity in a tank), and then brings a whole lot more. Same story, pretty much, comparing PLD to RDM.

Individuals of different jobs vary in quality, so NIN X + PLD Y might be better than PLD Y + PLD Z due to PLD Z's reaction times best being measured in eons. That doesn't mean that NIN is better than PLD, or even as good as PLD. You do the best with what you have, but "best setup" from a job perspective shortlists PLD. And other options when you don't have enough PLDs with the right gear and brains in their skulls.

[Fridell]

The whole point why LSs use their PLDs today is because it's easier to handle for both the PLDs and the support compared to a Ninja (not saying it's easy, but easier). PLD allows mistakes, Ninja doesn't.
Now I'm not hating on PLD's at all here, I prefer PLD tanks over anything else just because of these reasons lol, more comfortable to play with PLDs in general. Having RDMs & NINs do tanking is more of a risk taking, unless you know the people that is gonna do the tanking as NIN & RDM, and know that they're good at it.

[Neosutra]

This thread is pretty much stupid shit. Take Richardd's advice and do w/e Kaeko says cause he knows wtf he is talking ab. Besides that, fuck all the plds who post on this thread ab your epeen Atonement numbers n shit. If you don't have an Excalibur then your dmg doesn't mean shit. Guess your pretty fucking awesome you got to Atonement twice during that 4min Fafnir eh? Seriously no point n listening to any shit in this thread and let tank do their own thing. Most of these tanks will get their shit handed to them from either another tank or mob and act like it didn't happen.

Too bad 80% of the mobs in the game you'll look like garbage solo tanking (idc wtf gear you have).

lolwut?

4 min Fafnir? Atonement sux? Nin > Pld because nin can solo better (on stuff that pld cant pld/rdm I assume you are talking about)? There are some smart ninjas in here with some good points to be made on emnity generation and damage reduction, you are not one of them.