NIN/RDM vs NIN/DRK

[Thunder]

When both jobs are perfectly capable of doing the damage absorbing, the one that can do more other shit at the same time wins.

Why has there been more, "i cun tank as good as all you mothafuckin' plds hurr," dribble past that comment?

PLD's most likely better in just about all the situations you can find yourself in. But that doesn't mean you can't do it with nin; and I think the people who come in here angry with something to prove need to look up the distinction between better tank and exclusive tank.

[Max™]

I'm fairly certain I'll do better on Nin the instant I hit 75 than I do on Pld...

Why?

I'll be dinging into the last pieces of my 20% haste set on Nin, vs my lulzy 14% on Pld, and just general better gear I've gathered elsewhere. T.T

If I did go out and get the shit I'm missing (0/5 homam, 1/5 relic, etc) I could do wonderfully, especially due to atonement, but as it is... meh, it isn't as comfortable.

[ringthree]

Max, I believe most of this discussion presumes decently geared and skilled tanks in general. Exceptions can always be made for those without the gear or skill to compete at any level. They don't really effect the discussion at all.

[Spider-Dan]

Put it this way: there is less separation between NIN and PLD tanks than there is between WHM and RDM healers, or any two DDs in the game.

[ringthree]

Put it this way: there is less separation between NIN and PLD tanks than there is between WHM and RDM healers, or any two DDs in the game.

For hate holding sure, damage absorption maybe, but for everything else?

[Neosutra]

Put it this way: there is less separation between NIN and PLD tanks than there is between WHM and RDM healers, or any two DDs in the game.

I would disagree with that.

Odin: Pld > Nin - Having low manned several Odins, the extra 3-4000 each pld does in this fight helps ALOT.
Cerburus: Pld > Nin - Even takes extra spirit damage.
PW: Pld > Nin - Not even a comparison
ToAU Beastman kings: Pld > Nin (Most content from ToAU includes mobs that wipe shadows with -every- TP move and double or triple attack. No more of this "lol I attack slow, but hit really hard" shit.

Wyrms: Rdm >= Nin >= Pld (All 3 can get good resist builds and Nin and Rdm can generate better hate) due to limited atonement ability.

Old 3 Kings and Sky gods: Pld = Nin = Rdm = whatever, they are too god damned easy to even matter, but pld still offers more oshi~ and atonement damage to each fight.

People are still trivializing how powerful Chivalry, Cover enhancement (with relic body), and refresh pieces combined with devotion are to a good pld. I can literally SPAM cure3/4 till I am blue in the face and still have MP to spare in any given situation. When a Nin can deal decent damage, assist heal an entire alliance, reach -50% MDT and 50-60+ MDB, and press the help button anything they are in trouble, you can start making a comparison.

All of the arguements people have used here can be used for Rdm tank. Rdm tank infact can do just about anything a Nin does better. Shit ton of fast cast, more damage reduction, and greater MP/hate tools, and Nin is outclassed yet again.

[ringthree]

I would disagree with that.

Odin: Pld > Nin - Having low manned several Odins, the extra 3-4000 each pld does in this fight helps ALOT.
Cerburus: Pld > Nin - Even takes extra spirit damage.
PW: Pld > Nin - Not even a comparison
ToAU Beastman kings: Pld > Nin (Most content from ToAU includes mobs that wipe shadows with -every- TP move and double or triple attack. No more of this "lol I attack slow, but hit really hard" shit.

Wyrms: Rdm >= Nin >= Pld (All 3 can get good resist builds and Nin and Rdm can generate better hate) due to limited atonement ability.

Old 3 Kings and Sky gods: Pld = Nin = Rdm = whatever, they are too god damned easy to even matter, but pld still offers more oshi~ and atonement damage to each fight.

People are still trivializing how powerful Chivalry, Cover enhancement (with relic body), and refresh pieces combined with devotion are to a good pld. I can literally SPAM cure3/4 till I am blue in the face and still have MP to spare in any given situation. When a Nin can deal decent damage, assist heal an entire alliance, reach -50% MDT and 50-60+ MDB, and press the help button anything they are in trouble, you can start making a comparison.

All of the arguements people have used here can be used for Rdm tank. Rdm tank infact can do just about anything a Nin does better. Shit ton of fast cast, more damage reduction, and greater MP/hate tools, and Nin is outclassed yet again.

While I don't disagree with any of this, it should be noted that NIN can establish hate just as quickly as a PLD. They essentially have the same exact tools now that they have Yonin, which acts kind of like (obviously not exactly, but as an enmity multiplier) Sentinel.

Yonin, Stun, Last Resort, Soul Eater is going to glue a mob to you. PLD can do the same kind of thing of course. And obviously Sentinel has much greater added benefits.

RDM falls far behind in this kind of situation. RDM is great when everything is fine and dandy, but if you need control of a mob right now (because of hate issues or after the initial pull) then NIN and PLD are much better equipped to deal with the situation. Maybe even NIN more so because a landed Stun stops the mob cold even if just for a second, but that can mean a lot sometimes.

I think some of the disagreement within this discussion can be found based on the situation that different people find themselves in. If you know you are going to have highly skilled support with you all the time for all fights, then you create a different set of assumptions than if you are used to low-manning things or having to hold things while people arrive. In general, I would much rather be prepared for the later because the former generally equalizes the quality of the jobs for tanking. To me, in situations with less support for whatever reason, PLD wins out. If you don't experience this kind of situation very often then you may have a different preference.

I think the important thing to remember for those that are damning the other sides choices is not so much that there is a universally correct choice, but that different situations often times demands different tactics. If you start from this idea, it becomes much more difficult to offensively criticize the choices of others.

I know this is BG and anyone that doesn't think the way as you is obviously stupid, but if freaking Neo can engage in this debate civilly then so can we all.

Sorry, got a bit off track there. LOL

[Neosutra]

Freaking Neo.

[Kipling]

I wasn't aware people still used that word.

[ringthree]

I wasn't aware people still used that word.

Neo? Yeah, I think people do. I heard the FCC wanted to put it on the 8 banned words list but got overruled by Obama.

Freaking Obama!

Ok, I am done with the derailing.

[Max™]

Max, I believe most of this discussion presumes decently geared and skilled tanks in general. Exceptions can always be made for those without the gear or skill to compete at any level. They don't really effect the discussion at all.

Well, I will be getting to do both jobs with my only experience being from War/Nin, so while I can see how Pld/Nin is easy (and really, I CAN tank pretty damn well on it, I'm just nitpicking my own gear the whole time), I can also see how much more comfortable I'll be having a full haste set equipped.

[richardd]

I'm fairly certain I'll do better on Nin the instant I hit 75 than I do on Pld...

Why?

I'll be dinging into the last pieces of my 20% haste set on Nin, vs my lulzy 14% on Pld, and just general better gear I've gathered elsewhere. T.T

If I did go out and get the shit I'm missing (0/5 homam, 1/5 relic, etc) I could do wonderfully, especially due to atonement, but as it is... meh, it isn't as comfortable.

haha man i had full homam/ares body/b mask and uryuu and me lotted valor surcoats in xarca and my pld was 0. i had velo belt and shadow items, and plenty of things available. so i was in the same boat as you but opposite <_>; but i never did it lol. same reason why neo never bust out his nin. if our "main" tanking job is good enough to get the job done, i dont see why we would need to lvl another one even if 1 job will be better than the other on certain mobs.

...that and i wanted to lvl drg next. drg was pimp. how can you turn down drg?


and im curious as to why pld is better than rdm or nin at PW. i fought that damn mob for like 10 hours (we were the ones that provided BTL and Mojo/EX with our strategy), and i did just fine on every single add/NM. even the ones with AOE. dont see how any tank can be better than the other lol. but im done with the debate. so im not gonna really chime in except that tsuko has a sexy sig.

[Devdas]

Rich were you using a staff or Katana's on PW forms? What was your damage like and how much damage and stuff were you taking?

[Kipling]

Aztech must have been your inspiration for DRG :3

[richardd]

Rich were you using a staff or Katana's on PW forms? What was your damage like and how much damage and stuff were you taking?

PW was a joke, he was stunnable, he hits slow and his aoe didnt do much dmg at all.

back when it took like 20 hours to kill, i would kite it like this, i took a SS right before he warped in the middle of the screen since i had hate. and than kited it back to the other path. (btw i can get more hp, ive gotten 2050 hp on nin/drk)
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/1...0729231338.png

and than when it was on its last form, we just tanked it normally
http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/1...0730004249.png

it was like tanking a dynamis mob from icelands, but now its even easier because they nerfed him lol. i would use katana for the easier ones like LBC and other misc chariots, but i still stuck with staff for the most part. nins are bad in PW? it sucks that there's not that many players out there who take the time and effort to put in the job, because i know a lot of people are capable. but in a way i dont blame pld's for the stereotype POV of ninjas in general. i hope you nins step it up!

[Devdas]

^^ Thanks Rich I remember seeing on your blog that you were Nin for that fight and have been curious about it ever since.

[richardd]

^^ Thanks Rich I remember seeing on your blog that you were Nin for that fight and have been curious about it ever since.

yea actually, we were the ones that provided BTL and Mojo/EX with our strategies. we were the 2nd ppl amongst other LS's to pop it and got it pretty far. we just didnt know it would take more than 1 hour to beat... or 10 lol..

i also came sam after we found out how easy this shit was. rdm's owned the hell out of it. plus i like hitting stuff and since i was a mnk/sam/nin addict, i just came on my fav DD instead ;

but yeah man, anyone can tank this. i bet even blu's and drks can step it up

[Neosutra]

and im curious as to why pld is better than rdm or nin at PW. i fought that damn mob for like 10 hours (we were the ones that provided BTL and Mojo/EX with our strategy), and i did just fine on every single add/NM. even the ones with AOE. dont see how any tank can be better than the other lol. but im done with the debate. so im not gonna really chime in except that tsuko has a sexy sig.

Was mostly thinking of sentinel between repops (8 lamps + PW beating on you). Im sure you can handle it with the old method of just kiting away and being drawn in (and thus not being beat on as much), but when you are on a time constraint, you cant really rely on that. Add atoment and extra support for the DDs (that will take hate now with lower HP forms and faster kill speeds) and I dont think it is really a comparison.

And ya, I would love to play my nin more, but I havent really found superior uses for it outside situational soloing.

It isnt PW that is the hard mob to tank (until last form), it is him and his friends and the crowd control inbetween (and last form frenzy).

[richardd]

ya man! fosho, i never mind hearing your POV's because you're generally more open minded about tanking overall. but ya. if you are doing a supertank method, pld is def gonna be the best choice

[Neosutra]

I wish I had the opportunity to fight PW before they nerfed him =/.

And all of this Nin talk is making me wanna bust out the nin again..

Oh, and unrelated question, but I always assumed the answer was no: Is PW last form (dvergr) stunnable? I assumed lolno, but didnt get to test last time and dont seem to remember in any of my records from previous kills.