How the Health Crisis was solved 80 years ago.

[guartz]

guartz. You do realize that your "free market" solution is already out there right? The only thing stopping someone from peru to practice medicine here is a simple exam. How exactly does that help?

Doctor immigration into the United States: news from NEJM CareerCenter

[Beckwin]

guartz, from the article you posted:

For many years, the United States was a closed shop for most foreign-born physicians. Today, however, as many as 30% of all physicians in some specialties are international medical graduates (IMGs) and the majority of these physicians are foreign-born.

beyond that, does Peru or wherever necessarily have a surplus of doctors?

[guartz]

guartz, from the article you posted:



beyond that, does Peru or wherever necessarily have a surplus of doctors?

ah right, well, to be considered an IMG you need to be a U.S citizen.

[guartz]

whats the wait on that, 8 years? 15? not sure. I guess the doctors can just clean toilets 'til then.

[Beckwin]

How long does it take to become a u.s. Citizen after filing my application?

Mexico Monitor: Immigrants get US citizenship for military service

Green Cards for Doctors by Peng & Weber

seems like there's a variety of ways for doctors to work in the US and/or obtain citizenship, and that's just a 5 minute google search.

8-15 yearz of scrubbing toilets guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WITH A GUN TO YOUR HEAAAAAAD

[guartz]

Or you can immigrate to UK or Canada or France where they welcome Doctors with open arms.


By the way, you have to live in America for a certain amount of time before "applying for naturalization" which, as your article points out, takes about 2 years. edit: (5 years wait?) + 2 years application = 7 years. Hmmm

And that's if you can get a greencard/visa.

[Beckwin]

guartz, one of my articles shows how a doctor can get a visa to work as a doctor. you can get a visa, work 5 years, and then become a citizen after that.

but if you're set on citizenship right off the bat, you can just marry an american.




and all of this is skirting the issue of insurance companies being so fucked up. again, you need to read up on medical-loss ratios and how insurance companies will do anything to get them as low as possible.

[guartz]

guartz, one of my articles shows how a doctor can get a visa to work as a doctor. you can get a visa, work 5 years, and then become a citizen after that.

but if you're set on citizenship right off the bat, you can just marry an american.




and all of this is skirting the issue of insurance companies being so fucked up. again, you need to read up on medical-loss ratios and how insurance companies will do anything to get them as low as possible.

The problem is health-care cost.

People can't afford healthcare, now they can't even afford INSURANCE for healthcare.

Obviously, the issue is insurance.


I mean, logic fail or what?

[Beckwin]

now tell me how other countries push down health costs. spoilers: it is not largely with free market solutions.

and really guartz, please, read up on medical-loss ratios and tell me there isn't a major conflict of interest between profit motive and participants wanting to get treated.

[Sirrus_Asura]

now tell me how other countries push down health costs. spoilers: it is not largely with free market solutions.

and really guartz, please, read up on medical-loss ratios and tell me there isn't a major conflict of interest between profit motive and participants wanting to get treated.

If there was only one insurance company or so few this would make perfect sense in my eyes.

But isn't the idea behind free market that people are able to choose and the companies who treat their customers like trash don't make as much / any money?

Not to say our Health care situation is this pure free market situation, cause it's certainly not.

[Skjie]

I'm interested in what you guys will say when the Government tells you that families on the poverty line will be expected to pay into the healthcare whether they can afford it or not, like in Canada.

For instance, when determining if you are eligible for assistance on paying health premiums in my province, you cannot include any debt you have against your paycheque, and any savings you have must be put towards paying premiums first, no matter what the savings are for. At one point, I was straight up told by the government that the savings I had for school must go to pay premiums, even though I did not have a job at that time.

[Beckwin]

If there was only one insurance company or so few this would make perfect sense in my eyes.

But isn't the idea behind free market that people are able to choose and the companies who treat their customers like trash don't make as much / any money?

Not to say our Health care situation is this pure free market situation, cause it's certainly not.

you are aware that health insurance companies are basically acting as an oligopoly right now, correct? there really aren't much in the way of options for the consumer, and this is why we've seen profits soar over the last twenty years while payouts are down, premiums are up, and now 40 million are without insurance.

but see, the thing is, in theory things are most effective with a bigger pool. it's sort of a catch-22 if you want this privatized solution.

you really need to read up a bit more on the current state of our healthcare insurance industry. we had a good topic on it not too long.

[guartz]

now tell me how other countries push down health costs. spoilers: it is not largely with free market solutions.

and really guartz, please, read up on medical-loss ratios and tell me there isn't a major conflict of interest between profit motive and participants wanting to get treated.

our entire civilization, as species, is based on individual's profit motives. Look outside, see the tall buildings? See the trucks and cars buzzing to and fro? All the food and clothes that are made and shipped, all the technology, all the services, all of it, because some guy somewhere wants to make a buck.

and you have a few charlatans with winning smiles who put on wigs and pretend they care about everyone, get elected into this farse of a system no different now then 2500 years ago, claiming that they know how to make this force of nature better.

The rub is that there is no defining the collective whim of 6 billion individual souls. So the fuckers just wing it, whatever sounds right, usually they just say whatever sounds right and do whatever the hell they want anyway, because, by god, without them pulling shit out of their ass every few years, we are all gonna off ourselves.

[Beckwin]

our entire civilization, as species, is based on individual's profit motives. Look outside, see the tall buildings? See the trucks and cars buzzing to and fro? All the food and clothes that are made and shipped, all the technology, all the services, all of it, because some guy somewhere wants to make a buck.

stop trolling. just fucking stop.

the agricultural revolution, the printing press, all the way to advanced technology involving computers, the internet, satellites, and nuclear technology are the results of creations by collectives or individuals seeking something other than individual profit.

enough with your free marketeer dogmatic bullshit, lol. your last post was completely off-topic... I take it that maybe you read up on what I told you to and don't have a valid response.

[guartz]

individuals seeking something other than individual profit.

Ah yes, is this the sad little propaganda they teach in public schools, Beckwin?

Do you honestly believe in that virtue? That virtue that is mostly preached by 'austere' men who sit on golden thrones?

But some of it is true, sometimes profit is not a true motive, at least not monetary profit. Perhaps knowledge is the greater reward to some, and while these 'greater' men toil in their laboratory to advance our civilization, the buggers who bring their food and take out their trash, seek precisely, individual profit.

Directly or indirectly, Beckwin, our civilization evolved around the marketplace. It's not a flaw, it's our innate trait. It's basic psychology.

[eunhye]

you mean this?

http://www.ruralhealth.utas.edu.au/c...ds-Pyramid.jpg

[Olo401]

To be perfectly honest it looks like it's a restriction to prevent changing legacy plans that are grandfathered in (i.e. a protection measure for people who keep their existing plans, so they don't get screwed by an HMO that wants to cut their coverage to trim the bottom line).

I could be interpreting it wrong though, since it depends on the text from another laws already on the books.. let me dig around a bit more to verify.

Depends on what Sec. 2791c of the PHSA says.. more digging! I wonder if I get frequent flier miles for visiting Findlaw and Cornell Law School's website?

If there's no catch 22 within those 2 parts I'ma have to be downin some humble pie.

Edit: Any word on those 2 parts I brought up the other day?

Sorry for the delay.. ADD + work + new games + Yanks-Sox series kicked in..

Here's §2791c of the Pulic Health Service Act..

(c) EXCEPTED BENEFITS.—For purposes of this title, the term ‘‘excepted benefits’’ means benefits under one or more (or any combination thereof) of the following:
(1) BENEFITS NOT SUBJECT TO REQUIREMENTS.—
(A) Coverage only for accident, or disability income insurance, or any combination thereof.
(B) Coverage issued as a supplement to liability insurance.
(C) Liability insurance, including general liability insurance and automobile liability insurance.
(D) Workers’ compensation or similar insurance.
(E) Automobile medical payment insurance.
(F) Credit-only insurance.
(G) Coverage for on-site medical clinics.
(H) Other similar insurance coverage, specified in regulations, under which benefits for medical care are secondary or incidental to other insurance benefits.
(2) BENEFITS NOT SUBJECT TO REQUIREMENTS IF OFFERED
SEPARATELY.—
(A) Limited scope dental or vision benefits.
(B) Benefits for long-term care, nursing home care, home health care, community-based care, or any combination thereof.
(C) Such other similar, limited benefits as are specified in regulations.
(3) BENEFITS NOT SUBJECT TO REQUIREMENTS IF OFFERED
AS INDEPENDENT, NONCOORDINATED BENEFITS.—
(A) Coverage only for a specified disease or illness.
(B) Hospital indemnity or other fixed indemnity insurance.
(4) BENEFITS NOT SUBJECT TO REQUIREMENTS IF OFFERED
AS SEPARATE INSURANCE POLICY.—Medicare supplemental health insurance (as defined under section 1882(g)(1) of the Social Security Act), coverage supplemental to the coverage provided under chapter 55 of title 10, United States Code, and similar supplemental coverage provided to coverage under a group health plan.

Combined with the text from the currently pending bill, this looks to just be defining what wouldn't qualify for coverage under a public plan. For example, if you're involved in a car accident public medical insurance would not cover it (which is understood already - private medical insurance doesn't cover it either; it's either paid by auto insurance or out-of-pocket). Likewise, something that would be covered by existing insurance coverage, i.e. if someone's on a privately-purchased plan or Medicare, it obviously wouldn't need to be covered under a public plan.

I'd be willing to bet you'd see this kind of restrictive cover-their-bases language in just about any medical insurance contract, private or not.

[Beckwin]

Ah yes, is this the sad little propaganda they teach in public schools, Beckwin?

Do you honestly believe in that virtue? That virtue that is mostly preached by 'austere' men who sit on golden thrones?

But some of it is true, sometimes profit is not a true motive, at least not monetary profit. Perhaps knowledge is the greater reward to some, and while these 'greater' men toil in their laboratory to advance our civilization, the buggers who bring their food and take out their trash, seek precisely, individual profit.

Directly or indirectly, Beckwin, our civilization evolved around the marketplace. It's not a flaw, it's our innate trait. It's basic psychology.

Yes Guartz, Einstein developed the theory of relativity and established E=Mc^2 because he wanted to get paid and make it rain in some Austrian gentlemen's clubs. Those hunter-gatherers who started planting the seeds they gathered and started catching some of those animals they hunted did it so they could commoditize labor and create more jobs. We put men on the moon because there was a huge market demand for sweet vacations in space. We created the internet because these little guys with a company called google had a sweet idea to cash in on ad revenue.

you're right; Our Lord von Mises created us with an inherent love for markets and owning everything we can, and everything in this world is our tribute to His glory.

so now, back to healthcare and how greater degrees of collectivization drive down costs, still employ tons of medical professionals, and actually give people the service they put in for versus our fucked up oligopoly where the goal is to provide as little service as possible and is totally willing to exclude people who don't contribute to increasing profits to please the investor class.

stop trolling

[Sirrus_Asura]

you are aware that health insurance companies are basically acting as an oligopoly right now, correct? there really aren't much in the way of options for the consumer, and this is why we've seen profits soar over the last twenty years while payouts are down, premiums are up, and now 40 million are without insurance.

but see, the thing is, in theory things are most effective with a bigger pool. it's sort of a catch-22 if you want this privatized solution.

you really need to read up a bit more on the current state of our healthcare insurance industry. we had a good topic on it not too long.

I'm aware of all of this. That's why I said our situation is far from the "Iconic Pure Free Market" example.

[Sirrus_Asura]

Yes Guartz, Einstein developed the theory of relativity and established E=Mc^2 because he wanted to get paid and make it rain in some Austrian gentlemen's clubs. Those hunter-gatherers who started planting the seeds they gathered and started catching some of those animals they hunted did it so they could commoditize labor and create more jobs. We put men on the moon because there was a huge market demand for sweet vacations in space. We created the internet because these little guys with a company called google had a sweet idea to cash in on ad revenue.

you're right; Our Lord von Mises created us with an inherent love for markets and owning everything we can, and everything in this world is our tribute to His glory.

so now, back to healthcare and how greater degrees of collectivization drive down costs, still employ tons of medical professionals, and actually give people the service they put in for versus our fucked up oligopoly where the goal is to provide as little service as possible and is totally willing to exclude people who don't contribute to increasing profits to please the investor class.

stop trolling

So would you be in favor of a pure free market w/ Insurance? (Not what we're dealing with currently)