How the Health Crisis was solved 80 years ago.

[Dimmauk]

By voting Democrat?

Maybe, or something else.

[kuronosan]

I forgot... what happened to letting people make up their own minds about what they wanted to do?

Questions:

1) If democrats have the majority, why is there so much opposition to it?

2) If democrats are saying republicans are the problem, and that they want the bill passed, why isn't passed since they have the majority?

3) If the majority of America wants health care reform, why is there such an outcry against it?

All this shit is frustrating me because it seems as if people really want the reform (EVERYONE I talk to where I live and where I work is for it) but all you hear is how no one wants it.

[Sirrus_Asura]

I forgot... what happened to letting people make up their own minds about what they wanted to do?

Questions:

1) If democrats have the majority, why is there so much opposition to it?

2) If democrats are saying republicans are the problem, and that they want the bill passed, why isn't passed since they have the majority?

3) If the majority of America wants health care reform, why is there such an outcry against it?

All this shit is frustrating me because it seems as if people really want the reform (EVERYONE I talk to where I live and where I work is for it) but all you hear is how no one wants it.

1) Repubs are just barking really loud. Death Panels, Socialist Empire, Etc

2) Dems are fucking stupid and just in denial, and want to blame repubs for this entire thing.

3) 1 Mixed with some people afriad that their current provider(Which they might like, OMFG THIS CANNOT BE) will go poof.

[Sirrus_Asura]

Maybe, or something else.

Hardcore dude.

[Dimmauk]

I forgot... what happened to letting people make up their own minds about what they wanted to do?

Questions:

1) If democrats have the majority, why is there so much opposition to it?

2) If democrats are saying republicans are the problem, and that they want the bill passed, why isn't passed since they have the majority?

3) If the majority of America wants health care reform, why is there such an outcry against it?

All this shit is frustrating me because it seems as if people really want the reform (EVERYONE I talk to where I live and where I work is for it) but all you hear is how no one wants it.

1) Some are worried about the cost of the bill, and not the actual purpose of the bill.

2) The democrats want to be civil and listen to what the Republicans have to say. In the end, the Dems will probably, hopefully just pass it anyways.

3) Just because someone makes loud noises, it doesn't mean they are the majority.


I was wondering why we just dont No-Bid contract insurance companies to give insurance to everyone. It worked for Halliburton and Blackwater. AMIRITE?

[Sirrus_Asura]

I forgot... what happened to letting people make up their own minds about what they wanted to do?

What do you think this is? America? Get your head out of the clouds.

[Olo401]

Like I said before, if this health care bill doesnt get passed, I'm completely and totally going to blame the Republicans. And my vote will show this.

By voting Democrat?

No by voting for you genius..

Speaking of BRILLIANT FUCKING MINDS... Adventures in the Rabbit Hole | Talking Points Memo

"If you in fact freely choose to enroll in Medicare that's a wonderful gift," said (former House Majority Leader Dick) Armey, "it's a charity, it's something I applaud. But when they force you in, that's tyranny."
Needless to say, Armey, albeit a native English speaker, has not apparently focused in on the 'option' part of 'public option' since obviously in the reality-based world, this is the whole point. It's an option if you either cannot or do not want insurance from a private company.

http://www.appletreeblog.com/wp-cont...n-facepalm.jpg

[Leif]

No by voting for you genius..

You expect anyone to believe you would ever stray outside your extremist standpoint and vote Republican? Really? Why bother? The Republicans are never going to win you over, so stop acting like a swing voter. I don't run around preaching that the left needs to change back to their "core" in order to win me over. I will never vote for a liberal. I believe in myself, the liberty of others, and individual worth too much to just say that a government bureaucracy should be substituted for all that. I don't want to be treated like a child. Apparently you do.

has not apparently focused in on the 'option' part of 'public option'

Everybody with a clue knows that you don't have any options if you can't afford private insurance. The more people who can't afford private insurance, the more that jump on the public plan. The more people that jump on the public plan, the more expensive it gets for everyone. The more expensive it gets for everyone, the more people are forced to ditch their private insurance to be in the public plan.

As time goes on, it ceases to be an "option" for more and more people as the price goes up and up and up. This plan DOES put the foot in the door for socialized medicine. There is no stopping that.

1) Some are worried about the cost of the bill, and not the actual purpose of the bill.

2) The democrats want to be civil and listen to what the Republicans have to say. In the end, the Dems will probably, hopefully just pass it anyways.

3) Just because someone makes loud noises, it doesn't mean they are the majority.

1) What is the actual purpose of the bill? To give Americans choices? Competition? As I've demonstrated above, it does nothing of the sort. There are real and genuine ways to implement choices and competition. You do this by implementing tort reform. You do this by getting rid of the law allowing states to ban the sale of insurance across state lines. You facilitate the free market and everybody prospers.

But what? The democrats couldn't fit in 2 paragraphs about tort reform and eliminating a silly law because what? They couldn't tack on another page to their 1000 page bill?

Even if they were determined to lower prices (yeah, right), why wouldn't they put something like that in the bill? I mean, in addition to the public option they could implement those two things which would "lower" prices even more. But why don't they? Because it means more people being able to afford private insurance. Because it means less people on the "public" plan. Never trust a Democrat to lower prices. Always trust a Democrat to expand government and raise taxes: the two things that have shown to dig the bottom of any recession deeper.

2) You are saying that Democrats actually want to listen to Republicans to be nice? So what do you call the screams of bloody murder and "scare tactics"? Real civil huh? How many unions do you see representing the right at these town halls? How many t-shirts and reserved seats do you see for the right? Look to your own rent-a-mob armies that receive special treatment at these things.

3) Most people want health care reform (myself included). I want tort reform. I was increased competition. I want all the things that have been shown and shown again to lower prices and increase the level of goods in any market. That's the health reform I want because I know it will work. The left just wants to make the government bigger because it can. It sounds like a great thing to help people with their "health care" - it's a warm fuzzy subject that we wish everyone had. It's too bad that such an issue is only a talking point for the left to create a bigger government that thinks it can spend your money better than you can.

Most people (53% last time I checked) do not want anything to do with Obamacare. Only 30 something percent actually want it.



Before everyone starts applauding how amazing this public option is, why is everyone so quick to dismiss free market ideas that everyone knows in their heart will work quite well. It may not solve the problem, but at least it will give people a better idea of how big of a problem there will be left to solve. Most of America knows that. Do you?

[Sirrus_Asura]

You expect anyone to believe you would ever stray outside your extremist standpoint and vote Republican? Really? Why bother? The Republicans are never going to win you over, so stop acting like a swing voter.

Yea, he didn't quite get the joke.

2) You are saying that Democrats actually want to listen to Republicans to be nice? So what do you call the screams of bloody murder and "scare tactics"? Real civil huh?

That or you're a racist. Though in their defense... Death Panels. That kind of shit does warrant being called out.

Most people (53% last time I checked) do not want anything to do with Obamacare.

God I wish it was called Obamacare instead of the Public Option. =(

[Leif]

That or you're a racist. Though in their defense... Death Panels. That kind of shit does warrant being called out.

Look, "death panels" is a strong word. It's also an effective political machine. I don't blame them for calling it out. However, "death panels" essentially translates to "government paid employees that are supposed to talk to the elderly to present to them the option of dying in an effort to save costs by cutting down on end of life care."

Is that something you really want the government doing?

edit: I like you, I think. Were you being sarcastic or not?

[Ryuushin]

I heard this on Rachel Maddow's audio podcast this week:

(warning: emotional)

"Senator Coburn, we need help. My husband has traumatic brain injury and his health insurance won't cover him to eat and drink. And what I need to know is are you going to help him where he can eat and drink. We left the nursing home and they told us we're on our own.

We left with a feeding tube and I've been working with him but I'm not a speech pathologist professional that takes 6 years to master and I'm trying to get him to eat and drink again."

Senator Coburn(Republican): "Well I think first of all, yeah we'll help. The first thing we'll do is see what we can do individually to help you through our office. But the other thing is that missing in this debate is us as neighbors, helping others that need our help. The idea that government is the solution to our problems is an inaccurate, a very inaccurate statement."

So.. the commentary was.. "he wants us as neighbors to hold bake sales so we can pay for each other's health care?" Which I agree with..

YouTube - Sen Coburn Tells Women Crying Over Health Care "Govt Is Not The Answer"

[Ryuushin]

Look, "death panels" is a strong word. It's also an effective political machine. I don't blame them for calling it out. However, "death panels" essentially translates to "government paid employees that are supposed to talk to the elderly to present to them the option of dying in an effort to save costs by cutting down on end of life care."

Is that something you really want the government doing?

edit: I like you, I think. Were you being sarcastic or not?

I think you're mistaken.. It's end of life counseling, not the other way around. It's people who are terminally ill or only have a certain amount of time to live to discuss options such as wills.. not talking to people about ending their lives >_>

[Dimmauk]

Look, "death panels" is a strong word. It's also an effective political machine. I don't blame them for calling it out. However, "death panels" essentially translates to "government paid employees that are supposed to talk to the elderly to present to them the option of dying in an effort to save costs by cutting down on end of life care."

Is that something you really want the government doing?

edit: I like you, I think. Were you being sarcastic or not?

Doctors will be Government employees? So they wont have their on practice anymore?

[Leif]

I think you're mistaken.. It's end of life counseling, not the other way around. It's people who are terminally ill or only have a certain amount of time to live to discuss options such as wills.. not talking to people about ending their lives >_>

Exactly. This borders too close to the issue of assisted suicide. Letting people know it's "okay to die" gives some the message that we "WANT you to die".

It's hard to know the difference. Letting people know "it's okay to give up" is not a message the government needs to be sponsoring.

Doctors will be Government employees? So they wont have their on practice anymore?

It doesn't matter who does it. And what @ the doctors working exclusively for the government?

[Ryuushin]

Exactly. This borders too close to the issue of assisted suicide. Letting people know it's "okay to die" gives some the message that we "WANT you to die".

It's hard to know the difference. Letting people know "it's okay to give up" is not a message the government needs to be sponsoring.

I agree and what this administration failed to do is come out with facts. Instead they quickly touted a reform and gave the opposition a wide opening. If the administration had done an informational campaign, I'd think we'd be in a better position than this.

[Sirrus_Asura]

Look, "death panels" is a strong word. It's also an effective political machine. I don't blame them for calling it out. However, "death panels" essentially translates to "government paid employees that are supposed to talk to the elderly to present to them the option of dying in an effort to save costs by cutting down on end of life care."

Is that something you really want the government doing?

edit: I like you, I think. Were you being sarcastic or not?

The racist part was sarcasm.


The death panel is just something I feel that is overblown. Call it what it is and let people decide from there. Calling it a "Death Panel" is just silly and frankly fear mongering, what kind of reaction do you expect?

It's almost belittling in that regard, that many Republicans think their audience wont understand anything other than "DEATH PANEL RAWR".

[Dimmauk]

I think you're mistaken.. It's end of life counseling, not the other way around. It's people who are terminally ill or only have a certain amount of time to live to discuss options such as wills.. not talking to people about ending their lives >_>

This is why it is hard to take Lief seriously.

Last I checked both parties have been trying to lower drug costs, but Lief wants the GOP to take credit for it.

Never trust a Democrat to lower prices. Always trust a Democrat to expand government and raise taxes: the two things that have shown to dig the bottom of any recession deeper.

Bush policies, Iraq War, and the giant government he built made this recession. We are slower recovering now. I'm glad all my taxes went to Halliburton and not to health care.

[Leif]

It's almost belittling in that regard, that many Republicans think their audience wont understand anything other than "DEATH PANEL RAWR".

I honestly don't think it's a matter of dumbing it down for people. It's a matter of making sure the message is powerful and impacts many people (the target group being the elderly).

"he wants us as neighbors to hold bake sales so we can pay for each other's health care?" Which I agree with..

This is also a third option (charities to cover the uninsured that don't qualify for government programs) that Democrats are reluctant to embrace.

When it comes to issues like health care, I don't like to think of myself as partisan. I think there are things that the government can do on a small scale that can be effective. I support giving people opportunities. I do not support, however, people who would not otherwise need such assistance forced into a government program because the government needs to suck in more and more people in order to stay afloat. I also do not support programs that send the message "if you don't want to work hard, the government will make up for your laziness".

In this situation, there are alternatives, and I want to pursue them before we start making the government bigger and more expensive.

Last I checked both parties have been trying to lower drug costs, but Lief wants the GOP to take credit for it.

.... What?

Bush policies, Iraq War, and the giant government he built made this recession. We are slower recovering now.

Bush isn't the model Republican or conservative. I strongly support his foreign policy, but his stance on other issues was mediocre at best. What we can learn, however, is that when Bush wanted to do health care, Democrats opposed it. Typical.

On a side note, I'm happy to see that you believe government got us into the mess (although we disagree whether or not it is really Bush's fault). I'm less delighted to see that you believe government can get us out.

I'm glad all my taxes went to Halliburton and not to health care.

Old. Nobody cares. Halliburton is not some conspiracy that secretly plotted 9/11 or something. There is no story there.

But on the topic of where your tax dollars go. They go to FedEx because USPS can't be trusted to get a package from point A to point B overnight.

[Sirrus_Asura]

Last I checked both parties have been trying to lower drug costs, but Lief wants the GOP to take credit for it.

Lets give them both an A+ for effort.

Bush policies, Iraq War, and the giant government he built made this recession. We are slower recovering now. I'm glad all my taxes went to Halliburton and not to health care.

I agree, Bush was a great Democrat.

[Olo401]

You expect anyone to blahblahblah Look at me I either got wooshed, or I'm the one with the "extremist standpoint" and I'm projecting which is a typical defense mechanism of conservative hacks.

Fixed.

Everybody with a clue knows that you don't have any options if you can't afford private insurance.

Yes, that's true. NOW.

The more people who can't afford private insurance, the more that jump on the public plan. The more people that jump on the public plan, the more expensive it gets for everyone.

Wrong. When the number of participants goes up, the cost per participant goes down. Haven't you ever bought anything in bulk? Same rule applies - you buy more, the price per unit goes down.

Most people (53% last time I checked) do not want anything to do with Obamacare. Only 30 something percent actually want it.

Wrong again.. As I've mentioned before, you're citing polls that ask skewed poll questions - they don't ask people about having the choice of their own insurance or a public plan, which is what the bill would do - provide a choice. Polls that do ask this question properly come in with a 76% positive response.

Before everyone starts applauding how amazing this public option is, why is everyone so quick to dismiss free market ideas that everyone knows in their heart will work quite well.

Why do you continue to dismiss the reality that choice and competition are at the heart of the free market, that this bill is written in that spirit, and the system we have now is NOT a free market because it denies them the supply of health care that they demand, and steals the money that they paid for that supply?