How the Health Crisis was solved 80 years ago.

[Rhinox]

In 1794, when Congress appropriated $15,000 for relief of French refugees who fled from insurrection in San Domingo to Baltimore and Philadelphia, James Madison stood on the floor of the House to object saying, "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents."

French refugees are Americans now?

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

And how in the hell could anyone interpret "general welfare" as unlimited? That would be going against everything our constitution was set up to protect the people against. Really man? Really?

Edit: Read the quote, that's whats important.

[Rhinox]

Wtf, how is it open to interpretation when the guy who wrote says "this is what it meant".

Hey how the 15th amendment work for women and minorties?

[Darus Grey]

Universal Healthcare has been shown to have better average care, and cost less per capita than our current system.

Our current system only works because with the exception of the elderly, the people who need care the most, are simply excluded from the system, to the tune of about 1/6th the country, probably closer to 1/4th once statistics get updated after this recession

If you believe that people should be left to die and fend for themselves, yes, our current system is efficient, but if your goal is to provide acceptable care for ALL citizens, then universal healthcare in it's many different forms, has proven to be the most efficient to the benefit of all. Even the UK system, which among the first world nations is considered the worst, is more efficient at providing care for all citizens than our current system, at a cheaper price per capita.

I personally like the Swiss system, where it's been proven that having a public option did not greatly impede private insurance, since "botique" packages over there are quite popular. Everyone get's a minimum level of service, and if they want more, they can pay extra for it Shocking...I know.

[Rhinox]

And how in the hell could anyone interpret "general welfare" as unlimited? That would be going against everything our constitution was set up to protect the people against. Really man? Really?

Edit: Read the quote, that's whats important.

So tell me this. All the money given to Hurricane katrina or any disaster relief. Is that unconstitutional?

[Sirrus_Asura]

All americans. Yes the niggers, Spics, Chinks, kikes, fags, Cunts, rednecks. Everyone of them.

So outside of our borders Health Care don't matter?

What happened to HUMAN rights? Glad you're above discrimination except when someone is born on the other side of an imaginary line and doesn't pay into your system. That soo much different than the system we have now eh?

People suffering in 3rd world countries are doing a fucklot worse than the worst of Americans and would work harder than the majority of Americans for a meal / living. You wan't to promote human rights and health to those who need and deserve it? Start there dipshit.

(Don't cry foul, you decided to be the douche here.)

You know we already have that in medicare in which if you're working already pay into right? You're also paying into the forced philanthropy of Some small towns police and fire department, State Prisons, Libraries, Public beaches, Public golf courses, county hospitals etc etc etc.

Well aware of this. Doesn't mean I agree with it being forced upon me. Theres a diference of being presented the option to benefit your society and being thrown in jail or handled with a gun by the IRS in order to do so. You can't seem to diferentiate the two.

Do people Drive over the speed limit? do they Jay-walk? eat fast food? have unprotected sex? drink Alcohol? All these would cost people money. Me having 1 Cigarette a day after dinner isn't going to kill me or give me Lung cancer. The fact that you're trying to discredit me with that psuedo-ad hominem attack just proves you're grasping for straws.

It's the fundamentals of it. If you haven't figured this out, you're hopeless.

Ok bro w/e you say. I just told you why they do. Giant insurance companies arent mom and pop shops where you can call and complain. If you want to complain about the the UHC you go to a town hall and demand change from your congressman. You attempt to complain to the CEO of United Health group and you wouldn't even make it past the front desk.

Demand? Do you actually think the system cares about you at all? That's a laugh, this is America bub.

Demand, are you fucking joking? If that worked we wouldn't have any issues to begin with (Argue this, I fucking dare you).

What you're doing is nothing short of Begging for your rights / liberties. Please Government, don't fuck this up, please give us Healthcare for all and make it fair and just and free from corruption. Bitch please.

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

So tell me this. All the money given to Hurricane katrina or any disaster relief. Is that unconstitutional?

Absolutely. "Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated." And then there's that pesky clause in the constitution about the powers of the federal government being few and defined whereas the states being unlimited.

[Rhinox]

So outside of our borders Health Care don't matter?

What happened to HUMAN rights? Glad you're above discrimination except when someone is born on the other side of an imaginary line and doesn't pay into your system. That soo much different than the system we have now eh?

People suffering in 3rd world countries are doing a fucklot worse than the worst of Americans and would work harder than the majority of Americans for a meal / living. You wan't to promote human rights and health to those who need and deserve it? Start there dipshit.

(Don't cry foul, you decided to be the douche here.)

I'm not a bleeding heart. There is nothing we could do about people living outside our borders rtard. The best thing we could do is lead by example. You know that thing we use to be so good at?

Well aware of this. Doesn't mean I agree with it being forced upon me. Theres a diference of being presented the option to benefit your society and being thrown in jail or handled with a gun by the IRS in order to do so. You can't seem to diferentiate the two.

You have to pay taxes retard. health care or no at the end of the day you have to pay them.

It's the fundamentals of it. If you haven't figured this out, you're hopeless.

It has fuckall to do with fundamentals. You're just trying to paint me as having some sort of alterior motive for wanting this shit passed. Guess what asshole I don't want a tracheostomy done and I'm as healthly as a 25 year old can be.

RabbleRabbleRabbleRabbleRabbleRabbleRabble gummerment bad RabbleRabbleRabbleRabbleRabble

gibberish

[Rhinox]

Absolutely. "Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated." And then there's that pesky clause in the constitution about the powers of the federal government being few and defined whereas the states being unlimited.

Ok Gotcha. See..this is why Libertarians will never win any sort of power.

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

Ok Gotcha. See..this is why Libertarians will never win any sort of power.

Ya, once people realize they can vote for money it's over pretty much. It's not entirely over though until that magic 51% is reached.

Edit: Although, I think if we got rid of with-holdings somehow that might take us back or keep that 51% from happening.

[Sirrus_Asura]

I'm not a bleeding heart. There is nothing we could do about people living outside our borders rtard. The best thing we could do is lead by example. You know that thing we use to be so good at?

Are you fucking joking? Dude, get the fuck out of here. Lead by example? Bitch please, come back to reality. Food doesn't appear on the table for poor countries cause America is "Leading by example".

You have to pay taxes retard. health care or no at the end of the day you have to pay them.

Missed the point entirely. Just stop responding all together if you're just gonna pull this shit.

It's the fundamentals of it. If you haven't figured this out, you're hopeless.
It has fuckall to do with fundamentals. You're just trying to paint me as having some sort of alterior motive for wanting this shit passed. Guess what asshoole I don't want a tracheostomy done and I'm as healthly as a 25 year old can be.

Its fundamentals. It's right there in front of you. Stop being such a fucking dolt.

gibberish

And here's where you've just gone down the crapper. Once again, just stop posting if this is all you have.

If your voice matters so much, go demand your reform. Lets see how far you get. You are so fucking naive its sad.

[Sirrus_Asura]

Gonna put this up again since you just sidestepped it.

Ok bro w/e you say. I just told you why they do. Giant insurance companies arent mom and pop shops where you can call and complain. If you want to complain about the the UHC you go to a town hall and demand change from your congressman. You attempt to complain to the CEO of United Health group and you wouldn't even make it past the front desk.

Demand? Do you actually think the system cares about you at all? That's a laugh, this is America bub.

Demand, are you fucking joking? If that worked we wouldn't have any issues to begin with (Argue this, I fucking dare you).


Go on. Try me.

[Rhinox]

Are you fucking joking? Dude, get the fuck out of here. Lead by example? Bitch please, come back to reality. Food doesn't appear on the table for poor countries cause America is "Leading by example".

Hey faggot, This just in.. our country can barely afford to sustain ourselves. But go ahead keep preaching your neocon rhetoric. And they accuse liberals of being bleeding hearts.

Missed the point entirely. Just stop responding all together if you're just gonna pull this shit.

ITS NOT FORCED PHILANTHROPY IF ITS A LAW YOU COCKMUNCHING SON OF WHORE

Its fundamentals. It's right there in front of you. Stop being such a fucking dolt.

holy shit. Just stop talking to me you're either the best troll or Rain man.

And here's where you've just gone down the crapper. Once again, just stop posting if this is all you have.

If your voice matters so much, go demand your reform. Lets see how far you get. You are so fucking naive its sad.

Funny. all the seems to come out of yours is how bad the government is yet you fail to convince anyone of your reasons.

[Rhinox]

Gonna put this up again since you just sidestepped it.

Demand? Do you actually think the system cares about you at all? That's a laugh, this is America bub.

Demand, are you fucking joking? If that worked we wouldn't have any issues to begin with (Argue this, I fucking dare you).


Go on. Try me.

You know nothing. It's not my voice that counts its the collective voice of his constituents. Do you not know how Government works? Is US history what they drop from the curriculum in Atlanta to replace it with Pigfucking 101?

[Sirrus_Asura]

Hey faggot, This just in.. our country can barely afford to sustain ourselves. But go ahead keep preaching your neocon rhetoric. And they accuse liberals of being bleeding hearts.

Really? Didn't seem to matter a few pages back.You wanna help those who really need it, start somewhere else.

Go on and keep pretending what I'm saying Neocon rhetoric, or that you have any clue what a Neocon is.

ITS NOT FORCED PHILANTHROPY IF ITS A LAW YOU COCKMUNCHING SON OF WHORE

Yes it is. Quit crying cause your view hold no water. It is the same thing, unless you're arguing semantics, which is just laughable at this point. Just because its "Law" dosen't change the principle or workings behind it. I don't even want to begin to parallel how fucked up your logic is around this.

Funny. all the seems to come out of yours is how bad the government is yet you fail to convince anyone of your reasons.

You've yet to convince anyone otherwise, or even begin to explain how I'm wrong on this. Way to sidetrack and ONCE AGAIN not answer.

[Sirrus_Asura]

You know nothing. It's not my voice that counts its the collective voice of his constituents. Do you not know how Government works? Is US history what they drop from the curriculum in Atlanta to replace it with Pigfucking 101?

What fucking country do you live in? Did you just read a history book and assume everything works as intended?

Lobbyists and Special Interests bitch, wake the fuck up kid.

[Rhinox]

What fucking country do you live in? Did you just read a history book and assume everything works as intended?

Lobbyists and Special Interests bitch, wake the fuck up kid.

Lobbyist and special interests means dick when you have no one to vote for you.

But go ahead stock up on your guns, ammo, mountain dew and cigarettes.

http://www.dark-logic.com/images/dale.jpg

newaay I'm out for the night



Edit: So so we're clear I'm not denying they play a role. All I'm saying it's ultimately up to the constituents to get heard.

[Darus Grey]

Yes it is. Quit crying cause your view hold no water. It is the same thing, unless you're arguing semantics, which is just laughable at this point. Just because its "Law" dosen't change the principle or workings behind it. I don't even want to begin to parallel how fucked up your logic is around this.

He's right, to say he's wrong, you have to make the argument that all taxes are philanthropy...which will lead to a whole train of pain.

[Beckwin]

Gonna put this up again since you just sidestepped it.

Demand? Do you actually think the system cares about you at all? That's a laugh, this is America bub.

Demand, are you fucking joking? If that worked we wouldn't have any issues to begin with (Argue this, I fucking dare you).


Go on. Try me.

yeah, no one was demanding changes during the 60s, and nothing happened.

in the 90s there wasn't a big demand for welfare reform, and nothing happened.

in the 90s there wasn't a demand for gun control, and nothing happened.

nope, none of that happened.

right now there's public demands for immigration reform... it's only a matter of time before things change.

I'm not trying to pretend our government is as responsive as it could or should be, but you need to drop your embarrassing cynical tough-guy/queen rhetoric and stop pretending it's never been responsive at all.

[Olo401]

It's not philanthropy if we make it into law. Philanthropy implies charity.. which as we already went over doesn't work.

It does work in very few, but very well-known cases. Dana-Farber Cancer Institute (AKA The Jimmy Fund) and MDA are quite possibly the best examples of this.