Why did the US government torture and imprison a 12 year old for 6 years?

[Cyn]

I'm sorry to call on you for this, so just because we live in the island we don't have the right to call on the US goverment? since Puerto Rico became a US territory we have fought on all the wars US were involve, many ppl from my family(grandfather, uncle, father) have fought in the US wars so don't give me that shit that we can't complaint about US political business because believe it or not we are American citizens.

Yes, but by that logic Kuya can't say things like

You Americans have a really pronounced end-of-the-world mentality. Where nothing matters, corruption is just an every day happening, so you should just forget about it and accept it. It's like it doesn't occur to you that it is that kind of mentality that allows this to spiral into oblivion.

[Headspace]

I'm sorry to call on you for this, so just because we live in the island we don't have the right to call on the US goverment? since Puerto Rico became a US territory we have fought on all the wars US were involve, many ppl from my family(grandfather, uncle, father) have fought in the US wars so don't give me that shit that we can't complaint about US political business because believe it or not we are American citizens.

Nope.

[Flarega]

Well they got a state quarter.

[BRP]

Yes, but by that logic Kuya can't say things like

Because you clearly don't understand who he is speaking to/about?

I think it is more bothersome that anyone would even believe what Klaatu said. What double standards lol?

[Demosthenes11]

Well they got a state quarter.

who let those fuckers get a quarter?
give them a nickel at best

[Sgtpayne]

Not sure how anyone can be called anti-American, it's in our foundation to air our dissents publicly and without fear of reprisal. Revolution is also a fundamental that was encouraged, even by the people who were involved in the last revolution. In short, we have the right to disagree with policy, and not exercising this right (when it's necessary in our eyes) is kind of ignoring a big part of what does indeed make us American.

The Bill of Rights gives us many freedoms, and very important ones. The sad thing is, most people have to look up some of them to even remember what they are.

The first amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

I realize some of the folks are trolling when they say America or GTFO and all that, but a large section of our population does in fact believe this shit. Fact of the matter is though, even if I had come home under an American flag, my service was to support those that agreed with our policies and also those who dissented. That same flag that we drape our soldiers in guarantees the rights of those who choose to burn one.

I guess if you like technicality rather than symbolism to prove the same point, holding someone without charges and torture are both against U.S. policy. So I don't see how anyone could consider it pro-American to support these things.

Don't get me wrong, we got great intel from tortured individuals, sometimes preventing greater harm in the end. But that's a very slippery slope...Who decides if the cost is worth the payoff?

[Khamsin]

But that's a very slippery slope...Who decides if the cost is worth the payoff?

I don't recall his name right now, but there is a guy who gets paid to decide that.

[Norellicus]

I read page one, skimmed 2-4, and read 5...I'd just like to say that I get the distinct impression that you would have put out a far less 'anti-american' vibe as some people are accusing you of, Kuya, had you simply kept the subject on the matter of the kid and not posted that opinion poll on global views on torture.


ps-

I don't agree with torture in war or peace, as everybody has basic rights, but I do believe that beyond the basic rights of human existence and ethical treatment your "rights" are probationary - that is, your extended rights as a citizen are forefeit if it can be proven that you were responsible for a crime, as you have willingly set yourself outside the harmony of society to commit the act.

Prisoners (foreign or domestic) shouldn't be beaten, but neither do they deserve luxury, and they should all answer for their crimes under the legal precedent of the area whence the crime was committed. Our house, our rules.

[BRP]

I read page one, skimmed 2-4, and read 5...I'd just like to say that I get the distinct impression that you would have put out a far less 'anti-american' vibe as some people are accusing you of, Kuya, had you simply kept the subject on the matter of the kid and not posted that opinion poll on global views on torture.

This type of advice is useless. The kind of people who depend on these "vibes" rather than what is being said are the kind of people not worth listening to in the first place. Why accustom yourself to retards?

[Kuya]

You're probably right about the poll, but that's their problem.

[Norellicus]

The point I was making was that it was needlessly inflammatory compared to the OP subject (and if the intention of the topic was to simply discuss "torture" as a broader subject, than the initial post is in itself baiting). Arbitrary world views have no place in a public area of discussion; what some news agency says India thinks about torture isn't relevant to the people present in this forum discussing the matter.

[Gregorio]

and they should all answer for their crimes under the legal precedent of the area whence the crime was committed. Our house, our rules.

No way. Like someone said on page 1..it's virtually impossible to gather evidence in an active combat zone. Troops don't have the luxury of having CSI Miami come in and investigate for days on where the terrorist played golf at to see if the remnants of grass on his shoes matched the location.

Beyond a reasonable doubt would not, and should not, ever be acceptable in a war zone unless every troop has a camera permanently attached to their retinas.

[Leif]

If they just shot the kid dead on the street nobody would care. But suddenly when we put a likely grenade-thrower into Gitmo and make him shift cells every couple hours everyone goes completely spastic.

There is nothing interesting about this case.

[Jodwahh]

Some people I can't find told me lief threw a grenade at an american tank. Time to lock him up.

[Muffins]

Some people I can't find told me lief threw a grenade at an american tank. Time to lock him up.

Let's take the thought experiment to an area more relevant to us:

I and several others have witnessed Leif necrobumping, rickrolling, and trolling with useless posts, bigotry, and other incendiary posts. Ban him to protect our Home Page during these dangerous times in the Flame War.

[Norellicus]

No way. Like someone said on page 1..it's virtually impossible to gather evidence in an active combat zone. Troops don't have the luxury of having CSI Miami come in and investigate for days on where the terrorist played golf at to see if the remnants of grass on his shoes matched the location.

Beyond a reasonable doubt would not, and should not, ever be acceptable in a war zone unless every troop has a camera permanently attached to their retinas.

Thanks for quoting out of context(: What I actually said was

your extended rights as a citizen are forefeit if it can be proven that you were responsible for a crime, as you have willingly set yourself outside the harmony of society to commit the act.

Prisoners (foreign or domestic) shouldn't be beaten, but neither do they deserve luxury, and they should all answer for their crimes under the legal precedent of the area whence the crime was committed. Our house, our rules.

Due process is still expected to accomplish this particular element, most notably the concept of "Innocent until proven guilty". This kid was mistreated, both ethically and judicially, no question about that.

[Leif]

Let's take the thought experiment to an area more relevant to us:

I and several others have witnessed Leif necrobumping, rickrolling, and trolling with useless posts, bigotry, and other incendiary posts. Ban him to protect our Home Page during these dangerous times in the Flame War.

"I don't like what he says. Let's ban him!"

If you guys want to just create gossip threads where you can hammer in your viewpoints to each other unopposed, just mark your threads as such. I won't touch them.

Some people I can't find told me lief threw a grenade at an american tank. Time to lock him up.

On a serious note, this is where the real flaw in your thinking is. There is no time for reasonable doubt during war. If you released this kid, it is likely that he would have gone out and thrown more grenades. You have to choose here: us or them. I certainly hope you pick us.

Due process is still expected to accomplish this particular element, most notably the concept of "Innocent until proven guilty". This kid was mistreated, both ethically and judicially, no question about that.

You do not get due process as a possible enemy combatant who allegedly threw a grenade. This is especially the case while the war is still going on. We can sort through all these terrorists and bomb throwers later. Right now, you have to keep them off the street for the safety of everyone in the war zone.